Swapnil Arnie
Thanks a lot Tinkoo ji. That is a valuable post. I must say to be achieved. I would request the moderator to form some kind of 'compilation' at the end of every discussion. And your info will be like ... I don't have words to express -- cherry on the cake. Thanks again.
{Oh! I was entered in the discussion now. But as you wish.}
I give up Zeeshan. In Hindi it's called, "maine apne haath khade kar diye".
You won!
Sorry, I am exhausted now.
:-)
Vishwa Mohan Tiwari
Friends,
SF is a different kettle of fish where the normal conventions of literature may not always be applicable, and certain new artifacts need to be invented.
As CMN je has said science has a very wide horizon with disconnected fields, and even a scientist may not know other domain of sciences.
To write an SF story without explanation of difficult terms or concepts may result in a rather long story, or a story with appeal to limited audience, or an uninteresting story, or a simple story with simple ideas.
In order to overcome various problems, notes may be a good idea.
I would rather like to read a story with complex science in it with notes rather than without notes and missing the pleasure of 'science' in it.
ZZ,
I have a comment only on the '5 elements' idea.
Yes today even a student of 5th or 6th class knows that the five elementsare not 'elements'.
I would clarify that the definition of the word element in the 5 elements is totally different from the modern definition from Chemistry.
The 5 are elements in the sense of that entity which causes an impact on life and nature, good or bad, today e.g. pollution.
If earth is polluted, life will not be healthy, so also for air, water, energy and space. Our rishies saw the importance of keeping people informed about the sanctity of these five elements.
There is long article which I have written on the subject explaining it in detail which has been published in Hindi magazines. The word element in the classical sense has a philosophical justification as well.
Even in English language the word element is used in a non-chemistry sense.
Tinkoo
Some of us love Hal Clement's fiction - & that's about as hard science as you find in any kind of fiction. Always without notes. Occasionally, I need to look up Wikipedia - but that's rare; mostly just common sense works.
Ditto with hard sf works of virtually every writer I've read. And Zeashan is not into hard sf - don't spoil his fiction with notes.
"To write an SF story without explanation of difficult terms or concepts may result in a rather long story": Try locating Hal Clement's short story "Dust Rag". Real hard sf - describes why there is a tenuous atmosphere on moon & how it can be dangerous to the unwary decades before it was verified by NASA. And easily accessible if you studied science in 12th standard. There are any number of other examples.
Also, none of this applies to Zeashan's fiction - he's not into hard sf, & there is even less reason for him to get into notes, infodumps, & such. I've read probably a half dozen of his stories now, including a novel. Never even felt need for extra explanation. I do have occasional issues with his style & pacing - every author has his quirks, but never
with inability to understand his science.
{As CMN je has said science has a very wide horizon with disconnected fields, and even a scientist may not know other domain of sciences. To write an SF story without explanation of difficult terms or concepts may result in a rather long story, or a story with appeal to limited audience, or an uninteresting story, or a simple story with simple ideas. In order to overcome various problems, notes may be a good idea.
I would rather like to read a story with complex science in it with notes rather than without notes and missing the pleasure of 'science' in it.}
There is a curious story by Charles L Harness - "The New Reality" (Thrilling Wonder Stories, December 1950). Basically a take on one of
the ancient views that universe is "maya", as any number of more recent stories also do.
But it has an argument I've not seen elsewhere in modern fiction: universe "is" whatever we currently are capable of imagining!! A rogue scientist in the story is bored with current reality, & has built an apparatus that will force a single photon to slow down - thus breaking a law of nature & forcing a transition to a universe governed with different laws!
{Vishwa Mohan Tiwari wrote: ZZ,I have a comment only on the '5 elements' idea. Yes today even a student of 5th or 6th class knows that the five elements are not 'elements'. I would clarify that the definition of the word element in the 5 elements is totally different from the modern definition from Chemistry. …….. element is used in a non-chemistry sense.}
Vishwa Mohan Tiwari
Tinkoo jee wrote,
"Some of us love Hal Clement's fiction - & that's about as hard science
as you find in any kind of fiction. Always without notes. Occasionally,
I need to look up Wikipedia - but that's rare; mostly just common sense
works."
I would dare say that yours {Tinkoo's) is a common sense, certainly for SF, that is uncommon. So please judge from an average SF reader's point. SF is not as popular in India as it is in the West, due to this lack of common knowledge of science.
I think, by and large, we are in agreement. Notes are required only for difficult terms or concepts, that too when the story is not able to or does not care to explain its import.
You do consult Wikipedia or other relevant document when necessary, though rarely. How many of our friends or an average reader do such things? They manage by taking a general idea.
Dr. Arvind Mishra
O.k . A compromise could be reached in permitting short notes and/or glossary for Indian audience in the long sf versions like novelette and novels while short stories could be left free from such dis tractors .
I feel its not an inability on the part of the audience to understand the given text but of an sf writer to be not able to explain the things in the main text itself with the help of dialogues or by other creative means! I personally find the idea of putting supplementary notes in the short stories quite unpalatable !
Swapnil Arnie
I 101% agree with you Arvind ji. Let's forget about text story. What about a radio play or a movie? Will we be giving notes there too as sub titles?
CMN sir, I quite understand your view, but we have to understand it is Fiction. That is a different format all together. The writer already has been given the tool he needs, words and space. "In a lighter note, foot note is the land are of the real estate of fiction where you don't have the perit to build anything". I have never come across any such story where you get foot notes.
And if a writer has to give foot notes then it simply means he is picking a wrong format to share the information. He should rather write an essay on it and not fiction.
I would say in terms of creativity -- text -- fiction is the toughest because you have build internal logic, you have to stay away from the stupidity called coincidence and you also have to be a psychologist to analyse human behaviour so as to create differentiable characters, In addition, there should be an element of emotions, drama and much more. So, it is one of the most refined and complex format of textual entertainment. Footnote is not a solution, Footnote actually has no place in fiction. Michael Crichton, my fav, seemed to have mastered the art, as you can see most of his work is either about computing or biology. In Jurrasic Park or Highly comlicated AirFrame he never used footnote, instead as Arvind Ji suggested, he used the format and tools of fiction -- dialogue -- to explain it.
If a writer thinks that his audience is kids, then he should write stories gauging thier level of understanding. In case of India, I don't think we will have to face that problem. SF movies and novels are quite popular here. As far as Indian SF is concerned it is not popular becaue of several reasons, one being diversity. I am not getting to read SF Lit in other languages. Second being the quality of literature. Third being platform to publish SF is missing except for Vigyan Pragati and Avishkar there are tiny winy magazines whoes target audience is not the one we want. So, we also need a platform here which cal enable Indian SF writers to bring forth their work. But, foot note will not be allowed :-)
Showing posts with label Discussion. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Discussion. Show all posts
Wednesday, May 6, 2009
Sunday, May 3, 2009
A Discussion on SF "Dangai Banjare" at IndianSF Group Part-5
Swapnil Arnie
{Partially you are right. On the other hand collaboration of brains can give results in the form}
{(a) Story can never be completed. It is my solid experience of Mumbai.}
If it doesn't then its not the fault of the group activity, but the lack of sync and desire. Also you did not understood the concept of peer review. By the way this is age of collaboration, GNU/Linux and Free Software is the best example to look up at.
{(b) Story may convert into ‘Choon Choon Ka Murabba’. Like RamGopal Verma ki Aag.}
If you are talking about Mumbai film industry citing examples of those people, I am out of this discussion.
{(c) Story may be too complicated.}
Disagree.
{(d) Story may be converted into a research paper.}
Disagree.
{And some more things, Two topmost writers of India wrote the most Superhit story ‘Sholey’, but see the logic, A high water tank in a village where no electricity found, without explanation how the water reaches to the tank.}
I won't comment. But there are 1000 of mechanical ways to do that. But, despite being an educated man, I can not comment on the intelligence level of those writers. And I don't think Sholey is the example to be given in context of SF stories.
{The one of the topmost science fiction ‘The fifth element’ violates basic concept of element. Today a lower class student knows too that water, fire, air, earth and human none is the element.}
That is another Hollywood flick and NOT a true science fiction. Another wrong example picked by you.
{In any James Bond film many solid brains jointly create illogical sequence of actions.}
What do you mean by that?
Zeeshan, I appreciate your explanations but the approach that "if they can be wrong, what's the harm in me doing wrong" is not creative, its defensive. I can cite many more factual errors in those stupid movies, but that doesn't prove anything. I would have loved if you had pointed errors in works of Clarke, Asimov or Micheal Crichton...well there are many more good writers.
But, alas, you did not.
I don't think this discussion can take any productive direction now onwards. So, end of the discussion from my side. Over to others.
Just forgot to add about the Fifth Element thing. It had more to do with philosophy than chemistry. And I guess most of the civilisations have, in one form or the other the concept of five element. At least I know the concept of Indian civilisation :-) What is it called "Panch Tatwa" or sonething? VMT ji or Arvind ji may throw light on this.
Good night
Dr. Arvind Mishra
My respectful thanks to all who enthusiastically participated in discussion on the story of Zeashan written on a dare /challenge and no doubt it was a very satiating experience.Not only it delved deep into the story and put forth an excellent critique but it also encompassed many other relevant and even some not apparently associated aspects like the inept and callous bureaucracy ( even forgetting for a moment that the hapless moderator also belongs to the tainted group !).
Now please permit me to conclude this beautiful discussion with the element part as indicated by Swapanil.-KSHITI JAL PAAWK GAGAN SAMEEERA PANCHBHOOT YAH ADHAM SAREERAA ( this mortal ill fated body is made from a composition of five- the earth ,water,fire, wind and space-a reality which every body must not forget ! because it has to get decomposed in these parts only some day ! )
Thanks again !
Zeashan Zaidi
{Also you did not understood the concept of peer review. By the way this is age of collaboration, GNU/Linux and Free Software is the best example to look up at.}
Free Softwares etc are the researches not the stories. And you already agree that story should not be converted into research paper.
{And I don't think Sholey is the example to be given in context of SF stories.}
I thought you are talking about stories, not the SF stories. I personally expect that a SF reader have so strong commonsense that many unexplained things he understands.
{That is another Hollywood flick and NOT a true science fiction. Another wrong example picked by you.}
Btw what is the definition of true SF?
{I would have loved if you had pointed errors in works of Clarke,Asimov or Micheal Crichton}
And all these were written their stories individually.
{end of the discussion from my side.}
Oh! I was entered in the discussion now. But as you wish.
Tinkoo
Swapnil Bhartiya wrote:
{but that doesn't prove anything. I would have loved if you had pointed errors in works of Clarke, Asimov or Micheal Crichton...well there are many more good writers.}
I personally happen to have read over a half-dozen novels of Arthur Clarke that carry a coauthor on cover, apart from virtually every story he wrote alone - short or long. My older site - "http://arthur-clarke-fansite.blogspot.com/" - is dedicated entirely to his works. Here is food for thought from his collaborative works.
Every one of them is written by the other author - one that appears in small font on the cover. They might have discussed the outline, Clarke might even have provided the outline - but these works are really of a single author - one that appears in smaller font. Clarke's name in big letters on cover helps ensure you will pick up the book in stores; that's the only use of his name on cover.
Oh yes - and the oft cited collaboration of "2001 A Space Odyssey" with that movie maker. Novel version was written alone, by Clarke. Clarke talks in detail on this collaboration - movie + novel + associated short stories (there were several) - in _The Lost Worlds of 2001_.
Asimov did a 25-book collaboration with Martin Greenberg - anthology series called "Isaac Asimov Presents Great SF Stories". I've read at least a few stories from most of these books. Every story carries headnotes - usually 2 of them per story, one by each editor. Asimov makes it very clear that selections are entirely of Greenberg. He doesn't explicitly state his own contributions, apart from supplying very interesting nuggets in headnotes - but I suspect it has to do with his name appearing in big font on cover - something that will make you pick them up in store.
Several authors have written works in Asimov's fictional universes. I've read most of those set in Foundation universe, plus the 3 Caliban books set on one of the Spacer worlds by Roger McBride Allen. Every one of these is an individual's work - usually with permission of Asimov or his
wife, & presumably with a royalty agreement.
None of the half dozen odd novels of Crichton I've read are collaborations - so I'm not qualified to comment on his collaborative works, if there are any.
Probably the most interesting collaboration in sf field is of Henry Kuttner & his wife C L Moore. Together they produced some of the most important stories of the genre. It is said that when one left a story at the end of some sentence, other could simply pick up & write on! Even here, I can often make out the portions of Moore - she has a tendency to use lyrical & poetic language. But they are the only couple I know who produced first rate fiction together with very intimate collaboration - but they were man & wife, spent all their time together, & probably understood each other too well - combination hard to find normally.
{Partially you are right. On the other hand collaboration of brains can give results in the form}
{(a) Story can never be completed. It is my solid experience of Mumbai.}
If it doesn't then its not the fault of the group activity, but the lack of sync and desire. Also you did not understood the concept of peer review. By the way this is age of collaboration, GNU/Linux and Free Software is the best example to look up at.
{(b) Story may convert into ‘Choon Choon Ka Murabba’. Like RamGopal Verma ki Aag.}
If you are talking about Mumbai film industry citing examples of those people, I am out of this discussion.
{(c) Story may be too complicated.}
Disagree.
{(d) Story may be converted into a research paper.}
Disagree.
{And some more things, Two topmost writers of India wrote the most Superhit story ‘Sholey’, but see the logic, A high water tank in a village where no electricity found, without explanation how the water reaches to the tank.}
I won't comment. But there are 1000 of mechanical ways to do that. But, despite being an educated man, I can not comment on the intelligence level of those writers. And I don't think Sholey is the example to be given in context of SF stories.
{The one of the topmost science fiction ‘The fifth element’ violates basic concept of element. Today a lower class student knows too that water, fire, air, earth and human none is the element.}
That is another Hollywood flick and NOT a true science fiction. Another wrong example picked by you.
{In any James Bond film many solid brains jointly create illogical sequence of actions.}
What do you mean by that?
Zeeshan, I appreciate your explanations but the approach that "if they can be wrong, what's the harm in me doing wrong" is not creative, its defensive. I can cite many more factual errors in those stupid movies, but that doesn't prove anything. I would have loved if you had pointed errors in works of Clarke, Asimov or Micheal Crichton...well there are many more good writers.
But, alas, you did not.
I don't think this discussion can take any productive direction now onwards. So, end of the discussion from my side. Over to others.
Just forgot to add about the Fifth Element thing. It had more to do with philosophy than chemistry. And I guess most of the civilisations have, in one form or the other the concept of five element. At least I know the concept of Indian civilisation :-) What is it called "Panch Tatwa" or sonething? VMT ji or Arvind ji may throw light on this.
Good night
Dr. Arvind Mishra
My respectful thanks to all who enthusiastically participated in discussion on the story of Zeashan written on a dare /challenge and no doubt it was a very satiating experience.Not only it delved deep into the story and put forth an excellent critique but it also encompassed many other relevant and even some not apparently associated aspects like the inept and callous bureaucracy ( even forgetting for a moment that the hapless moderator also belongs to the tainted group !).
Now please permit me to conclude this beautiful discussion with the element part as indicated by Swapanil.-KSHITI JAL PAAWK GAGAN SAMEEERA PANCHBHOOT YAH ADHAM SAREERAA ( this mortal ill fated body is made from a composition of five- the earth ,water,fire, wind and space-a reality which every body must not forget ! because it has to get decomposed in these parts only some day ! )
Thanks again !
Zeashan Zaidi
{Also you did not understood the concept of peer review. By the way this is age of collaboration, GNU/Linux and Free Software is the best example to look up at.}
Free Softwares etc are the researches not the stories. And you already agree that story should not be converted into research paper.
{And I don't think Sholey is the example to be given in context of SF stories.}
I thought you are talking about stories, not the SF stories. I personally expect that a SF reader have so strong commonsense that many unexplained things he understands.
{That is another Hollywood flick and NOT a true science fiction. Another wrong example picked by you.}
Btw what is the definition of true SF?
{I would have loved if you had pointed errors in works of Clarke,Asimov or Micheal Crichton}
And all these were written their stories individually.
{end of the discussion from my side.}
Oh! I was entered in the discussion now. But as you wish.
Tinkoo
Swapnil Bhartiya wrote:
{but that doesn't prove anything. I would have loved if you had pointed errors in works of Clarke, Asimov or Micheal Crichton...well there are many more good writers.}
I personally happen to have read over a half-dozen novels of Arthur Clarke that carry a coauthor on cover, apart from virtually every story he wrote alone - short or long. My older site - "http://arthur-clarke-fansite.blogspot.com/" - is dedicated entirely to his works. Here is food for thought from his collaborative works.
Every one of them is written by the other author - one that appears in small font on the cover. They might have discussed the outline, Clarke might even have provided the outline - but these works are really of a single author - one that appears in smaller font. Clarke's name in big letters on cover helps ensure you will pick up the book in stores; that's the only use of his name on cover.
Oh yes - and the oft cited collaboration of "2001 A Space Odyssey" with that movie maker. Novel version was written alone, by Clarke. Clarke talks in detail on this collaboration - movie + novel + associated short stories (there were several) - in _The Lost Worlds of 2001_.
Asimov did a 25-book collaboration with Martin Greenberg - anthology series called "Isaac Asimov Presents Great SF Stories". I've read at least a few stories from most of these books. Every story carries headnotes - usually 2 of them per story, one by each editor. Asimov makes it very clear that selections are entirely of Greenberg. He doesn't explicitly state his own contributions, apart from supplying very interesting nuggets in headnotes - but I suspect it has to do with his name appearing in big font on cover - something that will make you pick them up in store.
Several authors have written works in Asimov's fictional universes. I've read most of those set in Foundation universe, plus the 3 Caliban books set on one of the Spacer worlds by Roger McBride Allen. Every one of these is an individual's work - usually with permission of Asimov or his
wife, & presumably with a royalty agreement.
None of the half dozen odd novels of Crichton I've read are collaborations - so I'm not qualified to comment on his collaborative works, if there are any.
Probably the most interesting collaboration in sf field is of Henry Kuttner & his wife C L Moore. Together they produced some of the most important stories of the genre. It is said that when one left a story at the end of some sentence, other could simply pick up & write on! Even here, I can often make out the portions of Moore - she has a tendency to use lyrical & poetic language. But they are the only couple I know who produced first rate fiction together with very intimate collaboration - but they were man & wife, spent all their time together, & probably understood each other too well - combination hard to find normally.
Monday, April 27, 2009
A Discussion on SF "Dangai Banjare" at IndianSF Group Part-4
Swapnil Arnie
{Please do not restrict the discussion so long as it adds to our knowledge in the right environment and spirit.}
I would request the same. The points cleared by Res Bimal ji have removed many doubts and confusions related to a very very sensitive issue. And these issues form the basis or direction of any story. So, sir please allow us to discussed such issues as well.
Gene van Troyer
{But, I don't know, what could be the solution for that.}
I believe the solution is that if such transiting flights leave their corridors, they are told to get back on course, fighter escorts are sent up to encourage compliance, and if that fails, the offending craft is shot down. A dramatic example of this happend a few years ago with a commercial Korean Airlines 747 that strayed into Soviet airspace enroute to Japan. It was a horrid mistake in judgment and verification procedures were somewhat changed to help avoid a repeat, but the lesson is nevertheless clear.
Countries can reduce the attractiveness of overflight corridors by keeping them over unattractive targets.
I should also like to note that none of the World Trade Center aircraft were traniting flights, but were all domestic flights that struck their targets almost immediately after take-off in the case of NYC, or inbound for landing in the case of the Pentagon strike. The plane thought to be bound for the White House was stopped by its passengers, and perhaps it was the only one of the four that could have otherwise been stopped by air defenses.
Cheers,
Zeashan Zaidi
Right. The reason is not that you will give inferior suggestions, but because story will lose its originality. I believe that if I take help from someone then my story is not mine.
In case if you translate it, you can take 5% independence ( The basic rule of statistics)
Dr. Arvind Mishra
Yes Gene it seems to be only right way to with deal with a suspected transiting flight making a de -tour ! Thanks !
Bimal Srivastava
Thank you very much Tiwari Ji, Swapnil Ji, Arving Ji and Gene van Troyer Ji.
I may just add one point for clarification that normally aircraft paths are tracked through enroute Radars. However, in case the aircraft flies low, or in case the Radar Coverage is not perfect, some times it may not be possible to keep the track all along.
In case of Korean Airline B747, which was shot down in Russia, the aircraft was flying at a very high altitude (Cruising level) and was kept under continuous vigil by Russians. On the other hand, Russian Govt. was bitterly criticized by West for shooting down a huge airliner with full load of innocent passengers including children & woman, as they claimed that the path diversion of the aircraft was due to malfunction of its navigational equipment, and the attack by Russians amounted to cold blood murder of innocent travellers.
Swapnil Arnie
Very true. But creativity grows with combined mind. But it works only with those who have that kind of mind set. A fiction writer never allows intervention. However on the other hand, I always get my stories peer reviewed by my friends and may include the changes if I like them. A writer may draft a plot but can never have a 360 degree view, so that is a must to get stories peer reviewed. But, may be that is my way of working, One thing I have learnt is collaborative brains achieve much more than an individual one.
{The tragedy is that the 'workable' solution doesn't always work! I don't mean it to become the childhood excercise when one sits with book in one hand and dictionary in another. But If the explanatory note is not appearing in the main text and the reader is informed that asteresik suggests looking up the footnote, if needed, it will not hinder the flow. It is one of the solutions and I would not be repelled by it in stories.}
CMN Sir,
Let's start by asking, Why do we need foot notes in a fiction? In Zeeshan's case a lot of explanation was missing, which needed to be explained. here foot note format will not work. Otherwise, there will be a kind of parallel story running in the foot note itself.
In case of giving definition of stuff like asteroid, I don't think a writer needs to give a definition. We always have a target audience in mind for which we write a fiction and we also know the knowledge level of that audience. The person should go ahead an do his research. This is back-ground information.
Here the thing in question was something Gene once mentioned, 'internal-logic' So, what I would do is give every possible information through the story itself. What else is story for if not sharing information in a format called fiction? If a writer needs help of other formats that simply means the creativity is lacking something.
Dr. Arvind Mishra
I agree ,Swapnil !
Dr. C.M.Nautiyal
Dear Swapnil,
You are right that in this particular instance, there may be loose threads and it's not that which I propose in the footnotes. The events are not to be explained by foototes or directly such as by a sootradhar (unless absolutely inevitable) but by elaborating situations. The footnotes may not be interconnected. If they were not disjointed, they could as well form part of the main story. So more like subroutines to be used when required.
The readership may not be having a broad background in all sciences. With specialisations increasing, it is not uncommon to come across terms/ phenomena etc. which may be unfamilair. A reader may not like to go around searching for the correct book of his/ her level where he can find the desired meaning, that too when reading a story. Author is in a good position to judge the general level requirement of reader. Footnotes will not add up to a story. These will be explanations (not necessarily interconnected) , and not of the situation (which the author is supposed to do in the main story- text).
In short, if I am reading a sci-fi and find a term of medical science, say, a fare disease or a rare physical phenonon, critical to understand the plot; it's best done in the main text. But if it's a term which may be understandable to many, but not to some, it may be explained in the footnote. Too many detailed explanations in the main text may distract many readers.
Reema Sarwal
Dear Everyone,
While I'm glad that my statement that "Authorities notice nothing" has led to this interesting discussion on an important matter of security, I must clarify that I had not meant the statement literally. I had meant that they don't notice anything on purpose. The reasons can range from bribery (as Swapnil ji pointed out in the case of unauthorised colonies), vested political interests, outdated laws that are no longer suitable in present-day conditions and ground realities, insufficient means and power given to those who are supposed to see to it that rules are followed (and I think this is as big a problem, if not bigger, than bribery), or sometimes plain apathy as the matter is thought to be too insignificant to look into, especially because there is so much else to do as well.
I did not go into all this when I made the initial statement because 1) I hadn't expected to be taken so literally (my fault) and 2) I did not think it mattered to the story in discussion whether the authorities allowed the construction of the lab knowingly or unknowingly - the point was that it was very believable that they would allow it.
Swapnil ji and Zeashan ji,
{Let's start by asking, Why do we need foot notes in a fiction? In Zeeshan's case a lot of explanation was missing, which needed to be explained. here foot note format will not work. Otherwise, there will be a kind of parallel story running in the foot note itself. }
{In case of giving definition of stuff like asteroid, I don't think a writer needs to give a definition. We always have a target audience in mind for which we write a fiction and we also know the knowledge level of that audience. The person should go ahead an do his research. This is back-ground information. }
{Here the thing in question was something Gene once mentioned, 'internal-logic' So, what I would do is give every possible information through the story itself. What else is story for if not sharing information in a format called fiction? If a writer needs help of other formats that simply means the creativity is lacking something.}
I would completely agree to that. In the case of Zeashan ji, I would here like to move beyond this particular story. I'm a fan of Zeashan ji's writing-style because of the combination of the genres of sf and murder mystery (there is always a detective figure, and often a Watson figure too in the stories); the racy narratives, settings, and raising of vital issues concerning our contemporary society. All this makes for an interesting read. But there is always a lack of detail, often details that leave the reader unsatisfied (probably sacrificed to maintain the raciness but a better balance could be achieved), an over-reliance on certain stereotypes and cliches (much more so in other stories like "underestimate" and the first one in the "professor monkey" collection, than in "dangai banjare") in order to get the plot into action quickly and not to waste much time on sketching out the character; and finally, although quite significant issues are raised, they are not really engaged with fully or in much depth (but this is not always a bad thing as it might force the reader to think on the issue itself rather than the story).
As far as the question of details in concerned, while they cannot be provided in footnotes, there are several other things to take into account. The stories read more like screenplays, like every story is imagined as a sequence of "scenes," and not as a story to be read leisurely. If the target audience is teen aged boys, young readers new to sf, and readers who are put off by anything longer than 10-15 pages, then this might work just fine. But to leave a deeper impression with the larger audience, it is essential that some issues are dealt with in more depth. I personally feel that if Zeashan ji achieves that, there is nothing to stop him from becoming the finest authors of Indian sf. Now all depends on the aim of Zeashan ji in writing the stories, his own convictions, and past feedback from his regular readers (and I must add, readers who have paid to read). Unless the writer is convinced that a change is needed in his writing strategy, a reviewer or editor cannot do anything. Especially if the writer feels that the loyal and target audience would be lost by making that change.
Zeashan Zaidi
Partially you are right. On the other hand collaboration of brains can give results in the form
(a) Story can never be completed. It is my solid experience of Mumbai.
(b) Story may convert into ‘Choon Choon Ka Murabba’. Like RamGopal Verma ki Aag.
(c) Story may be too complicated.
(d) Story may be converted into a research paper.
And some more things, Two topmost writers of India wrote the most Superhit story ‘Sholey’, but see the logic, A high water tank in a village where no electricity found, without explanation how the water reaches to the tank.
The one of the topmost science fiction ‘The fifth element’ violates basic concept of element. Today a lower class student knows too that water, fire, air, earth and human none is the element.
In any James Bond film many solid brains jointly create illogical sequence of actions.
{Please do not restrict the discussion so long as it adds to our knowledge in the right environment and spirit.}
I would request the same. The points cleared by Res Bimal ji have removed many doubts and confusions related to a very very sensitive issue. And these issues form the basis or direction of any story. So, sir please allow us to discussed such issues as well.
Gene van Troyer
{But, I don't know, what could be the solution for that.}
I believe the solution is that if such transiting flights leave their corridors, they are told to get back on course, fighter escorts are sent up to encourage compliance, and if that fails, the offending craft is shot down. A dramatic example of this happend a few years ago with a commercial Korean Airlines 747 that strayed into Soviet airspace enroute to Japan. It was a horrid mistake in judgment and verification procedures were somewhat changed to help avoid a repeat, but the lesson is nevertheless clear.
Countries can reduce the attractiveness of overflight corridors by keeping them over unattractive targets.
I should also like to note that none of the World Trade Center aircraft were traniting flights, but were all domestic flights that struck their targets almost immediately after take-off in the case of NYC, or inbound for landing in the case of the Pentagon strike. The plane thought to be bound for the White House was stopped by its passengers, and perhaps it was the only one of the four that could have otherwise been stopped by air defenses.
Cheers,
Zeashan Zaidi
Right. The reason is not that you will give inferior suggestions, but because story will lose its originality. I believe that if I take help from someone then my story is not mine.
In case if you translate it, you can take 5% independence ( The basic rule of statistics)
Dr. Arvind Mishra
Yes Gene it seems to be only right way to with deal with a suspected transiting flight making a de -tour ! Thanks !
Bimal Srivastava
Thank you very much Tiwari Ji, Swapnil Ji, Arving Ji and Gene van Troyer Ji.
I may just add one point for clarification that normally aircraft paths are tracked through enroute Radars. However, in case the aircraft flies low, or in case the Radar Coverage is not perfect, some times it may not be possible to keep the track all along.
In case of Korean Airline B747, which was shot down in Russia, the aircraft was flying at a very high altitude (Cruising level) and was kept under continuous vigil by Russians. On the other hand, Russian Govt. was bitterly criticized by West for shooting down a huge airliner with full load of innocent passengers including children & woman, as they claimed that the path diversion of the aircraft was due to malfunction of its navigational equipment, and the attack by Russians amounted to cold blood murder of innocent travellers.
Swapnil Arnie
Very true. But creativity grows with combined mind. But it works only with those who have that kind of mind set. A fiction writer never allows intervention. However on the other hand, I always get my stories peer reviewed by my friends and may include the changes if I like them. A writer may draft a plot but can never have a 360 degree view, so that is a must to get stories peer reviewed. But, may be that is my way of working, One thing I have learnt is collaborative brains achieve much more than an individual one.
{The tragedy is that the 'workable' solution doesn't always work! I don't mean it to become the childhood excercise when one sits with book in one hand and dictionary in another. But If the explanatory note is not appearing in the main text and the reader is informed that asteresik suggests looking up the footnote, if needed, it will not hinder the flow. It is one of the solutions and I would not be repelled by it in stories.}
CMN Sir,
Let's start by asking, Why do we need foot notes in a fiction? In Zeeshan's case a lot of explanation was missing, which needed to be explained. here foot note format will not work. Otherwise, there will be a kind of parallel story running in the foot note itself.
In case of giving definition of stuff like asteroid, I don't think a writer needs to give a definition. We always have a target audience in mind for which we write a fiction and we also know the knowledge level of that audience. The person should go ahead an do his research. This is back-ground information.
Here the thing in question was something Gene once mentioned, 'internal-logic' So, what I would do is give every possible information through the story itself. What else is story for if not sharing information in a format called fiction? If a writer needs help of other formats that simply means the creativity is lacking something.
Dr. Arvind Mishra
I agree ,Swapnil !
Dr. C.M.Nautiyal
Dear Swapnil,
You are right that in this particular instance, there may be loose threads and it's not that which I propose in the footnotes. The events are not to be explained by foototes or directly such as by a sootradhar (unless absolutely inevitable) but by elaborating situations. The footnotes may not be interconnected. If they were not disjointed, they could as well form part of the main story. So more like subroutines to be used when required.
The readership may not be having a broad background in all sciences. With specialisations increasing, it is not uncommon to come across terms/ phenomena etc. which may be unfamilair. A reader may not like to go around searching for the correct book of his/ her level where he can find the desired meaning, that too when reading a story. Author is in a good position to judge the general level requirement of reader. Footnotes will not add up to a story. These will be explanations (not necessarily interconnected) , and not of the situation (which the author is supposed to do in the main story- text).
In short, if I am reading a sci-fi and find a term of medical science, say, a fare disease or a rare physical phenonon, critical to understand the plot; it's best done in the main text. But if it's a term which may be understandable to many, but not to some, it may be explained in the footnote. Too many detailed explanations in the main text may distract many readers.
Reema Sarwal
Dear Everyone,
While I'm glad that my statement that "Authorities notice nothing" has led to this interesting discussion on an important matter of security, I must clarify that I had not meant the statement literally. I had meant that they don't notice anything on purpose. The reasons can range from bribery (as Swapnil ji pointed out in the case of unauthorised colonies), vested political interests, outdated laws that are no longer suitable in present-day conditions and ground realities, insufficient means and power given to those who are supposed to see to it that rules are followed (and I think this is as big a problem, if not bigger, than bribery), or sometimes plain apathy as the matter is thought to be too insignificant to look into, especially because there is so much else to do as well.
I did not go into all this when I made the initial statement because 1) I hadn't expected to be taken so literally (my fault) and 2) I did not think it mattered to the story in discussion whether the authorities allowed the construction of the lab knowingly or unknowingly - the point was that it was very believable that they would allow it.
Swapnil ji and Zeashan ji,
{Let's start by asking, Why do we need foot notes in a fiction? In Zeeshan's case a lot of explanation was missing, which needed to be explained. here foot note format will not work. Otherwise, there will be a kind of parallel story running in the foot note itself. }
{In case of giving definition of stuff like asteroid, I don't think a writer needs to give a definition. We always have a target audience in mind for which we write a fiction and we also know the knowledge level of that audience. The person should go ahead an do his research. This is back-ground information. }
{Here the thing in question was something Gene once mentioned, 'internal-logic' So, what I would do is give every possible information through the story itself. What else is story for if not sharing information in a format called fiction? If a writer needs help of other formats that simply means the creativity is lacking something.}
I would completely agree to that. In the case of Zeashan ji, I would here like to move beyond this particular story. I'm a fan of Zeashan ji's writing-style because of the combination of the genres of sf and murder mystery (there is always a detective figure, and often a Watson figure too in the stories); the racy narratives, settings, and raising of vital issues concerning our contemporary society. All this makes for an interesting read. But there is always a lack of detail, often details that leave the reader unsatisfied (probably sacrificed to maintain the raciness but a better balance could be achieved), an over-reliance on certain stereotypes and cliches (much more so in other stories like "underestimate" and the first one in the "professor monkey" collection, than in "dangai banjare") in order to get the plot into action quickly and not to waste much time on sketching out the character; and finally, although quite significant issues are raised, they are not really engaged with fully or in much depth (but this is not always a bad thing as it might force the reader to think on the issue itself rather than the story).
As far as the question of details in concerned, while they cannot be provided in footnotes, there are several other things to take into account. The stories read more like screenplays, like every story is imagined as a sequence of "scenes," and not as a story to be read leisurely. If the target audience is teen aged boys, young readers new to sf, and readers who are put off by anything longer than 10-15 pages, then this might work just fine. But to leave a deeper impression with the larger audience, it is essential that some issues are dealt with in more depth. I personally feel that if Zeashan ji achieves that, there is nothing to stop him from becoming the finest authors of Indian sf. Now all depends on the aim of Zeashan ji in writing the stories, his own convictions, and past feedback from his regular readers (and I must add, readers who have paid to read). Unless the writer is convinced that a change is needed in his writing strategy, a reviewer or editor cannot do anything. Especially if the writer feels that the loyal and target audience would be lost by making that change.
Zeashan Zaidi
Partially you are right. On the other hand collaboration of brains can give results in the form
(a) Story can never be completed. It is my solid experience of Mumbai.
(b) Story may convert into ‘Choon Choon Ka Murabba’. Like RamGopal Verma ki Aag.
(c) Story may be too complicated.
(d) Story may be converted into a research paper.
And some more things, Two topmost writers of India wrote the most Superhit story ‘Sholey’, but see the logic, A high water tank in a village where no electricity found, without explanation how the water reaches to the tank.
The one of the topmost science fiction ‘The fifth element’ violates basic concept of element. Today a lower class student knows too that water, fire, air, earth and human none is the element.
In any James Bond film many solid brains jointly create illogical sequence of actions.
Monday, April 20, 2009
A Discussion on SF "Dangai Banjare" at IndianSF Group Part-3
Reema Sarwal
Swapnil ji,
The author's work is to produce a text, not to explain it. A text is its own explanation. We should refrain from these kinds of requests, which can be made in this case simply because we happen to know the author.
There is no stereotypical portrayal of the authorities in the story. I personally know of at least one incident when 20 unarmed Santhals, including a pregnant woman and a five-year old boy, were gunned down to their deaths by the police because of one dead landowner. There is no doubt that the value of the life of all citizens is never equal.
On a lighter note, you've certainly given a very interesting definition of the word factory. From now on, I plan to say that I'm going to "hamaari apni" factory whenever I step into the kitchen-- sounds so nice and grand and rich!
……….
Yes sure! Please translate it...then people will not have to read a google-translated version of it and Tinkoo ji can host it on his site!!
Swapnil Arnie
{The author's work is to produce a text, not to explain it. A text is its own explanation.}
If a text demands more questions than it answers then it means the author has failed some where. The group is for discussion, and if a story is being shared here that means we can take pains and review it. If there are some explanations needed the author should give out. When I submit my stories to the editorial panel, I am always face with queries if they have any. And I must address those. We in publishing call it "Peer-Review".
The text here was not an explanation in its own. Just that there is a painting by picasso is self explanatory doesn't mean that any one can draw anything on canvas and say hey you conclude your own meaning.
{We should refrain from these kinds of requests, which can be made in this case simply because we happen to know the author.}
The primary purpose of the group is discussion. I see no harm in discussing as story as much as there was no hard in discussing a non SF movie on the forum. If discussion is refrained the group will lose its purpose and there will remain no point in someone sharing story here.
{There is no stereotypical portrayal of the authorities in the story. I personally know of at least one incident when 20 unarmed Santhals, including a pregnant woman and a five-year old boy, were gunned down to their deaths by the police because of one dead landowner.}
The portrayal of police was cliche. The dialog itself says that. e.
There is no doubt that the value of the life of all citizens is never equal.
{On a lighter note, you've certainly given a very interesting definition of the word factory. From now on, I plan to say that I'm going to "hamaari apni" factory whenever I step into the kitchen-- sounds so nice and grand and rich!}
It good that you found some fun there. I meant it to be funny. But, it was not that 'grand and rich'. Don't make it that large, settle for something less.
Bimal Srivastava
I may be permitted to give my observations on one point of Shri Swapnil Bhartiya (Which of course is from my professional field i.e. Aviation) ; "An unknown plane enters India from west, travels half way through the country's interior, delivers arms to terrorists in Purulia, travels other half & exits through east! Without authorities knowledge!"
No, That is not the fact. The movement and the flight plans of the aeroplane were very well known to the authorities. Rather as per the requirement, the air company had already obtained necessary written permission in advance from the Director General of Civil Aviation (DGCA India), to halt at Varanasi on its way to Kolkata from Delhi for a scheduled maintenance purpose. Unfortunately the actual intensions were not known, and the crew took undue advantage of the flight by illegally dropping arms at Purulia. I may also mention that it is a routine practice to allow Civil Flights across the country while flying from one country to other, which is known as Non Schedule Permit.
Swapnil Arnie
Thanks Bimal sir, Tinkoo ji please take notice. Sir has addressed the question raised by you.
Reema Sarwal
Swapnil ji,
I'm sorry I did not realise that the story is being shared for peer-review. All your questions and suggestions would then be seen in a very different light and I'm sure would be much appreciated by Zeashan ji. I was taking the story as a completed text being offered for comments and reactions. I am not competent or qualified to peer-review fiction.
Yes, the forum is for encouraging discussion. Again, I thought the story is done and so questioning the author about his intentions is not desirable.
Indian SF is what it is and should be portrayed as such. But if the purpose is to showcase the best of contemporary Indian SF, then a large no. of stories would have to be read before making the decisions and I have read very little Indian sf to comment on this issue.
You needn't be afraid of the reactions; every writer has to handle criticism and compliments for their work and learn from them. Also, rest assured, Indian sf won't get a bad name, if that's what you're afraid of. So translate it if you wish to, with the author's permission. I for one would certainly like to see how it looks in English.
-reema.
Tinkoo
Yes - thank you.
I still find it inexplicable that the SAME plane enters India again from east a few days later, crosses all of the country, & only when it is exiting near Bombay that Air Force takes notice! They force the plane to land in Bombay, & the crew of the plane manages to escape on landing by abandoning the plane! Am I the only one who sees idiots managing the whole screw up? Or at least an idiotic & irresponsible "system".
Even on the first run you just defended, what was to stop this plane from dropping a bomb on Benaras if it was carrying suicide squad instead of mere arms runners? What kind of confidence does it give about those managing the country's security?
For that matter, what action has been taken against the owners of the plane or those who sold these arms even post facto? None, as far as I know. They are foreigners, we are helpless babies unable to respond to attacks, ... - usual explanations.
Zeashan Zaidi
Dear Swapnil,
I think in any story there is no need to explain the things which are not directly related to story line, and it is not possible too in a short story, otherwise it may be boring and can deviate from its track. Many things in the story are self assumed and writer expects to his readers that they will understand through their commonsense.
Translation of the story is a good idea. After that we will find broader group for peer-review of the story.
Swapnil Arnie
ZZ
I quite agree with your statement that a lot of things are not possible in a short story. But, the biggest mistake we as a writer can do is assuming the readers know it. Especially in stories related to science and technology or suspense. This is your world, here you are the god and only you know the stuff. It is the story which communicates to the reader what is beneath the surface too.
In stories where a lot of explanation is required Short Story is not a good idea. Longer piece would do a better justice to the work.
But, I once again repeat: I appreciate and am amazed that you created the whole story in such a short time.
But if I do accept to translate the story, then I would suggest a lot of changes too, which may not be acceptable to you :-)
Dr. C.M.Nautiyal
Given the wide spectrum of type of readers of sci-fi, I have always thought if explanatory notes, wherever need is felt, is a feasible solution . A physicist may not understand the intricacy of genes, a life scientist of relativity and so on. This insertion of notes has a fear of hindering the smooth reading for those who understand but then they need not be deviated by the asterisc (*) if they have no difficulty. The explanation will be better as a box (only common in magazine, not books) or footnotes rather than annexure because turning over interrupt the flow.
Dr. Arvind Mishra
sf writers usually face this problem -a workable solution is to elaborate the points in the dailogues of the protagonists ! I have attempted it with some sucess ! Giving boxes etc does not fit in to the format of stories ! thanks for the views !
A translator should not attempt to alter the text of originl writing without the permission of the writer, So do not ever attempt to it !
Swapnil Arnie
{A translator should not attempt to alter the text of originl writing without the permission of the writer, So do not ever attempt to it !}
Well I am quite aware of that, that is the reason I asked Zeeshan. Coz in translation word we have a saying, "if ommision is crime, commision is sin."
Dr. C.M.Nautiyal
The tragedy is that the 'workable' solution doesn't always work! I don't mean it to become the childhood excercise when one sits with book in one hand and dictionary in another. But If the explanatory note is not appearing in the main text and the reader is informed that asteresik suggests looking up the footnote, if needed, it will not hinder the flow. It is one of the solutions and I would not be repelled by it in stories.
Vishwa Mohan Tiwari
Bimal jee
dhanyawaad.
This clarification was necessary as it portrays a dismal picure of Control of Indian air space.
Bimal Srivastava
Yes Tinkoo Ji. You are correct. If a civil cargo aircraft or even a normal passenger flight, which has got the permission to transit over the boundary of a neutral country like India (May not even land there), enroute to some other country, drops a bomb, or carries out a suicidal attack like 9/11 it is definitely a severe security lapse and of deep concern to all of us. But, I don't know, what could be the solution for that. Should they stop all foreign flights over the country, or make all transiting flights to compulsorily land in India, get the aircraft inspected by security agencies and then allowed to continue its journey. Even such steps cannot prevent a wicked pilot of an airliner to drop its aircraft over a crowded city or at any other place of vital importance. To come to a conclusion, I feel such exrta restrictions offer more hurdles and hardship to normal & innocent people, as a terrorist or person with polluted mind will always come out with some novel method. The only important thing is that one should not be slack (Rather should be extra vigil) while carrying out its normal security duties. At the same time I also feel that this is not the right forum for continuing such discussions, as we are perhaps deviation from the main topic of the beautiful story of Zeshan Ji.,
Vishwa Mohan Tiwari
Bimal jee You have done the right thing by explaining the situation.
Please do not restrict the discussion so long as it adds to our knowledge in the right environment and spirit.
Swapnil ji,
The author's work is to produce a text, not to explain it. A text is its own explanation. We should refrain from these kinds of requests, which can be made in this case simply because we happen to know the author.
There is no stereotypical portrayal of the authorities in the story. I personally know of at least one incident when 20 unarmed Santhals, including a pregnant woman and a five-year old boy, were gunned down to their deaths by the police because of one dead landowner. There is no doubt that the value of the life of all citizens is never equal.
On a lighter note, you've certainly given a very interesting definition of the word factory. From now on, I plan to say that I'm going to "hamaari apni" factory whenever I step into the kitchen-- sounds so nice and grand and rich!
……….
Yes sure! Please translate it...then people will not have to read a google-translated version of it and Tinkoo ji can host it on his site!!
Swapnil Arnie
{The author's work is to produce a text, not to explain it. A text is its own explanation.}
If a text demands more questions than it answers then it means the author has failed some where. The group is for discussion, and if a story is being shared here that means we can take pains and review it. If there are some explanations needed the author should give out. When I submit my stories to the editorial panel, I am always face with queries if they have any. And I must address those. We in publishing call it "Peer-Review".
The text here was not an explanation in its own. Just that there is a painting by picasso is self explanatory doesn't mean that any one can draw anything on canvas and say hey you conclude your own meaning.
{We should refrain from these kinds of requests, which can be made in this case simply because we happen to know the author.}
The primary purpose of the group is discussion. I see no harm in discussing as story as much as there was no hard in discussing a non SF movie on the forum. If discussion is refrained the group will lose its purpose and there will remain no point in someone sharing story here.
{There is no stereotypical portrayal of the authorities in the story. I personally know of at least one incident when 20 unarmed Santhals, including a pregnant woman and a five-year old boy, were gunned down to their deaths by the police because of one dead landowner.}
The portrayal of police was cliche. The dialog itself says that. e.
There is no doubt that the value of the life of all citizens is never equal.
{On a lighter note, you've certainly given a very interesting definition of the word factory. From now on, I plan to say that I'm going to "hamaari apni" factory whenever I step into the kitchen-- sounds so nice and grand and rich!}
It good that you found some fun there. I meant it to be funny. But, it was not that 'grand and rich'. Don't make it that large, settle for something less.
Bimal Srivastava
I may be permitted to give my observations on one point of Shri Swapnil Bhartiya (Which of course is from my professional field i.e. Aviation) ; "An unknown plane enters India from west, travels half way through the country's interior, delivers arms to terrorists in Purulia, travels other half & exits through east! Without authorities knowledge!"
No, That is not the fact. The movement and the flight plans of the aeroplane were very well known to the authorities. Rather as per the requirement, the air company had already obtained necessary written permission in advance from the Director General of Civil Aviation (DGCA India), to halt at Varanasi on its way to Kolkata from Delhi for a scheduled maintenance purpose. Unfortunately the actual intensions were not known, and the crew took undue advantage of the flight by illegally dropping arms at Purulia. I may also mention that it is a routine practice to allow Civil Flights across the country while flying from one country to other, which is known as Non Schedule Permit.
Swapnil Arnie
Thanks Bimal sir, Tinkoo ji please take notice. Sir has addressed the question raised by you.
Reema Sarwal
Swapnil ji,
I'm sorry I did not realise that the story is being shared for peer-review. All your questions and suggestions would then be seen in a very different light and I'm sure would be much appreciated by Zeashan ji. I was taking the story as a completed text being offered for comments and reactions. I am not competent or qualified to peer-review fiction.
Yes, the forum is for encouraging discussion. Again, I thought the story is done and so questioning the author about his intentions is not desirable.
Indian SF is what it is and should be portrayed as such. But if the purpose is to showcase the best of contemporary Indian SF, then a large no. of stories would have to be read before making the decisions and I have read very little Indian sf to comment on this issue.
You needn't be afraid of the reactions; every writer has to handle criticism and compliments for their work and learn from them. Also, rest assured, Indian sf won't get a bad name, if that's what you're afraid of. So translate it if you wish to, with the author's permission. I for one would certainly like to see how it looks in English.
-reema.
Tinkoo
Yes - thank you.
I still find it inexplicable that the SAME plane enters India again from east a few days later, crosses all of the country, & only when it is exiting near Bombay that Air Force takes notice! They force the plane to land in Bombay, & the crew of the plane manages to escape on landing by abandoning the plane! Am I the only one who sees idiots managing the whole screw up? Or at least an idiotic & irresponsible "system".
Even on the first run you just defended, what was to stop this plane from dropping a bomb on Benaras if it was carrying suicide squad instead of mere arms runners? What kind of confidence does it give about those managing the country's security?
For that matter, what action has been taken against the owners of the plane or those who sold these arms even post facto? None, as far as I know. They are foreigners, we are helpless babies unable to respond to attacks, ... - usual explanations.
Zeashan Zaidi
Dear Swapnil,
I think in any story there is no need to explain the things which are not directly related to story line, and it is not possible too in a short story, otherwise it may be boring and can deviate from its track. Many things in the story are self assumed and writer expects to his readers that they will understand through their commonsense.
Translation of the story is a good idea. After that we will find broader group for peer-review of the story.
Swapnil Arnie
ZZ
I quite agree with your statement that a lot of things are not possible in a short story. But, the biggest mistake we as a writer can do is assuming the readers know it. Especially in stories related to science and technology or suspense. This is your world, here you are the god and only you know the stuff. It is the story which communicates to the reader what is beneath the surface too.
In stories where a lot of explanation is required Short Story is not a good idea. Longer piece would do a better justice to the work.
But, I once again repeat: I appreciate and am amazed that you created the whole story in such a short time.
But if I do accept to translate the story, then I would suggest a lot of changes too, which may not be acceptable to you :-)
Dr. C.M.Nautiyal
Given the wide spectrum of type of readers of sci-fi, I have always thought if explanatory notes, wherever need is felt, is a feasible solution . A physicist may not understand the intricacy of genes, a life scientist of relativity and so on. This insertion of notes has a fear of hindering the smooth reading for those who understand but then they need not be deviated by the asterisc (*) if they have no difficulty. The explanation will be better as a box (only common in magazine, not books) or footnotes rather than annexure because turning over interrupt the flow.
Dr. Arvind Mishra
sf writers usually face this problem -a workable solution is to elaborate the points in the dailogues of the protagonists ! I have attempted it with some sucess ! Giving boxes etc does not fit in to the format of stories ! thanks for the views !
A translator should not attempt to alter the text of originl writing without the permission of the writer, So do not ever attempt to it !
Swapnil Arnie
{A translator should not attempt to alter the text of originl writing without the permission of the writer, So do not ever attempt to it !}
Well I am quite aware of that, that is the reason I asked Zeeshan. Coz in translation word we have a saying, "if ommision is crime, commision is sin."
Dr. C.M.Nautiyal
The tragedy is that the 'workable' solution doesn't always work! I don't mean it to become the childhood excercise when one sits with book in one hand and dictionary in another. But If the explanatory note is not appearing in the main text and the reader is informed that asteresik suggests looking up the footnote, if needed, it will not hinder the flow. It is one of the solutions and I would not be repelled by it in stories.
Vishwa Mohan Tiwari
Bimal jee
dhanyawaad.
This clarification was necessary as it portrays a dismal picure of Control of Indian air space.
Bimal Srivastava
Yes Tinkoo Ji. You are correct. If a civil cargo aircraft or even a normal passenger flight, which has got the permission to transit over the boundary of a neutral country like India (May not even land there), enroute to some other country, drops a bomb, or carries out a suicidal attack like 9/11 it is definitely a severe security lapse and of deep concern to all of us. But, I don't know, what could be the solution for that. Should they stop all foreign flights over the country, or make all transiting flights to compulsorily land in India, get the aircraft inspected by security agencies and then allowed to continue its journey. Even such steps cannot prevent a wicked pilot of an airliner to drop its aircraft over a crowded city or at any other place of vital importance. To come to a conclusion, I feel such exrta restrictions offer more hurdles and hardship to normal & innocent people, as a terrorist or person with polluted mind will always come out with some novel method. The only important thing is that one should not be slack (Rather should be extra vigil) while carrying out its normal security duties. At the same time I also feel that this is not the right forum for continuing such discussions, as we are perhaps deviation from the main topic of the beautiful story of Zeshan Ji.,
Vishwa Mohan Tiwari
Bimal jee You have done the right thing by explaining the situation.
Please do not restrict the discussion so long as it adds to our knowledge in the right environment and spirit.
Sunday, April 12, 2009
A Discussion on SF "Dangai Banjare" at IndianSF Group Part-2
Dr. Arvind Mishra
Dear Zeashan,
Would you like to make some amendments in original story in the light of discussions held so far ? Any insight ?
Swapnil Arnie
But, I would repeat. We appreciate ZeesHan's ability to create stories at such a fast pace. I wish to see more from his pen soon :-)
Tinkoo
Inline...
Swapnil Bhartiya wrote:
{Nothing happens without the notice of authorities. If they see a movement they will peep in and cite all the reasons why you can't do it. Which in other language means bribe us and carry on. Colonies were not built without notice, they were built knowing that there is no scope for 'bribery' in such cases or in case of builders, they get their share and allow construction. I live in Delhi and I know that. You see small LPG refilling shops in some areas? They did not mushroomed before authorities were indifferent, they came up because they give 500 Rs per day to the policemen. Any big movement means big money. So, they will intervene.}
Can you guess who was paid bribes when Pakistan occupied Kargil? It took our military months (or was it years?) to notice that they'd annexed Indian territory & we had to go to war!
An unknown plane enters India from west, travels half way through the country's interior, delivers arms to terrorists in Purulia, travels other half & exits through east! Without authorities knowledge!
Things like illegal colonies coming up on bribes are common in Bombay too, but "authorities" far too often are blind too. Or just plain incompetent.
{Factory is a term which I would use for anykind of production. Also it is beyond my understanding to create such powerful Lasers, and such technology to change DNA without much infrastructure. But, may be it is possible. It's India anything is possible :-)....
or C, where did the cage come from? Could the scientist create laser cage anywhere? What kind of emmence technology would be used then?}
This is science fiction, dear. There are any number of examples where the job of Zeashan's big lab is accomplished by a tiny hand-held gadget, or sometimes even "by thought".
There is a very lovely piece of humor by L Sprague de Camp - "Blue Giraffe". DNA change machine is in a little room in South Africa, its door is left open. Any animal, including humans, that crosses in front of its door gets a genetic mutation!
--
Zeashan Zaidi
Arvind Ji,
After a brilliant discussion among Tinkoo Ji, Reema Ji and Swapnil Ji, I reached to the conclusion that there is no need of any amendment in the story.
Reema Ji, you explained the points raised by Swapnil in the same way as I thought when was writing the story. e.g I created a picture of irresponsible authorities in the second scene.
Swapnil Arnie
{Can you guess who was paid bribes when Pakistan occupied Kargil? It took our military months (or was it years?) to notice that they'd annexed Indian territory & we had to go to war!
An unknown plane enters India from west, travels half way through the country's interior, delivers arms to terrorists in Purulia, travels other half & exits through east! Without authorities knowledge!
Things like illegal colonies coming up on bribes are common in Bombay too, but "authorities" far too often are blind too. Or just plain incompetent.}
Debatable.
{This is science fiction, dear. There are any number of examples where the job of Zeashan's big lab is accomplished by a tiny hand-held gadget, or sometimes even "by thought".}
By the way why did they not electrocuted each other by touching? There is no end to such questions. And explanations. I would have loved if the explanations came from Zeeshan, the creator himself. I wanted to hear his logic, coz he created it.
Yes, it is science fiction, but some logic and feasibility is also needed. A good fiction should be based on some realistic possibilities. A fiction writers has to be even more careful as he is controlling events, people's action, behaviour and much more. There has to be great logic behind everything. A tiny hand-held is OK, in whose hands is what matters. But, if you suggest some logics can be put aside then I am OK with it too.
Zeeshan I hope you are not minding this discussion. It has less to do with your story and more to do with my understanding of fiction.
Excellent Zeeshan. Thanks Reema Ji and Tinkoo. I will look forward to similar kind of stories from Zeehan in future too. I am tempted to translate it and share with the international community to give them and idea of our current SF what do you suggest Reema ji and Tinkoo? Should I share it?
Dear Zeashan,
Would you like to make some amendments in original story in the light of discussions held so far ? Any insight ?
Swapnil Arnie
But, I would repeat. We appreciate ZeesHan's ability to create stories at such a fast pace. I wish to see more from his pen soon :-)
Tinkoo
Inline...
Swapnil Bhartiya wrote:
{Nothing happens without the notice of authorities. If they see a movement they will peep in and cite all the reasons why you can't do it. Which in other language means bribe us and carry on. Colonies were not built without notice, they were built knowing that there is no scope for 'bribery' in such cases or in case of builders, they get their share and allow construction. I live in Delhi and I know that. You see small LPG refilling shops in some areas? They did not mushroomed before authorities were indifferent, they came up because they give 500 Rs per day to the policemen. Any big movement means big money. So, they will intervene.}
Can you guess who was paid bribes when Pakistan occupied Kargil? It took our military months (or was it years?) to notice that they'd annexed Indian territory & we had to go to war!
An unknown plane enters India from west, travels half way through the country's interior, delivers arms to terrorists in Purulia, travels other half & exits through east! Without authorities knowledge!
Things like illegal colonies coming up on bribes are common in Bombay too, but "authorities" far too often are blind too. Or just plain incompetent.
{Factory is a term which I would use for anykind of production. Also it is beyond my understanding to create such powerful Lasers, and such technology to change DNA without much infrastructure. But, may be it is possible. It's India anything is possible :-)....
or C, where did the cage come from? Could the scientist create laser cage anywhere? What kind of emmence technology would be used then?}
This is science fiction, dear. There are any number of examples where the job of Zeashan's big lab is accomplished by a tiny hand-held gadget, or sometimes even "by thought".
There is a very lovely piece of humor by L Sprague de Camp - "Blue Giraffe". DNA change machine is in a little room in South Africa, its door is left open. Any animal, including humans, that crosses in front of its door gets a genetic mutation!
--
Zeashan Zaidi
Arvind Ji,
After a brilliant discussion among Tinkoo Ji, Reema Ji and Swapnil Ji, I reached to the conclusion that there is no need of any amendment in the story.
Reema Ji, you explained the points raised by Swapnil in the same way as I thought when was writing the story. e.g I created a picture of irresponsible authorities in the second scene.
Swapnil Arnie
{Can you guess who was paid bribes when Pakistan occupied Kargil? It took our military months (or was it years?) to notice that they'd annexed Indian territory & we had to go to war!
An unknown plane enters India from west, travels half way through the country's interior, delivers arms to terrorists in Purulia, travels other half & exits through east! Without authorities knowledge!
Things like illegal colonies coming up on bribes are common in Bombay too, but "authorities" far too often are blind too. Or just plain incompetent.}
Debatable.
{This is science fiction, dear. There are any number of examples where the job of Zeashan's big lab is accomplished by a tiny hand-held gadget, or sometimes even "by thought".}
By the way why did they not electrocuted each other by touching? There is no end to such questions. And explanations. I would have loved if the explanations came from Zeeshan, the creator himself. I wanted to hear his logic, coz he created it.
Yes, it is science fiction, but some logic and feasibility is also needed. A good fiction should be based on some realistic possibilities. A fiction writers has to be even more careful as he is controlling events, people's action, behaviour and much more. There has to be great logic behind everything. A tiny hand-held is OK, in whose hands is what matters. But, if you suggest some logics can be put aside then I am OK with it too.
Zeeshan I hope you are not minding this discussion. It has less to do with your story and more to do with my understanding of fiction.
Excellent Zeeshan. Thanks Reema Ji and Tinkoo. I will look forward to similar kind of stories from Zeehan in future too. I am tempted to translate it and share with the international community to give them and idea of our current SF what do you suggest Reema ji and Tinkoo? Should I share it?
Tuesday, April 7, 2009
A Discussion on SF "Dangai Banjare" at IndianSF Group Part-1
Swapnil Arnie
Good work Zeeshan and quite fast too :-)
Some issues but lemme hear from other's first.
Reema Sarwal
Zeashan ji,
Thank you for writing this story on demand !! As usual, it shows your excellent command over an intriguing setting and a racy plot that makes for an interesting read !
Um, isn't it strange that the scientist should be so careless as to be electrocuted by his own slave? But more importantly, history proves that scientists, however mad, never wish to rule the world - that's not at all what they want from life - they're happier doing more research! And in this story, there is no revenge motive either (for the scientist) to make it sound probable, nor is he doing it for some other controlling organisation.
The story also makes me feel very sad because the scientist cannot think of any productive use for his invention and such a good invention too, which could have been so good for the tribe in many other ways than saving them from the outsiders, and it is then lost to the whole world !
That said, it is still a pretty good story as it addresses the all-important issue of preserving natural habitats in such a unique fashion.
Thanks again!
Dr. Arvind Mishra
I must admit that I have an inherent inability to be non judgemental whether a particular story is good or bad .Reema has indeed raised certain logical points which I trust shall be suitably addressed by the writer-but one thing which I appreciate is the writer's ability to accept the challenge to write a story on a given theme and Zeashan has not dissappointed us. In Hindi pulp novels there has been a stereotype of a mad scientist desirous of ruling the world and Zeashan has just followed the trend –
but I APPRECIATE Reema's outlook also which portrays a scientist as an angel ! ( Being one myself ! ha ha ! ) .Thanks Reema for having such a nice attitude towards scientists !
The pitfalls apart I like the Zeashan's specific style the way he makes the plot to have an errie environment reminding me of the famous Tilism stories of CHANDRKANTAA SANTATI.
Zeashan Zaidi
Thank you Reema Ji for a deep reading and a very nice & balancing comment. And of course a story (specially Sci Fi ) generates when something happens different from usual. So I took an unusual scientist for creating my story.
Now waiting from Swapnil’s side.
Swapnil Arnie
Hi Zees Han!
As I said earlier good story, that too when delivered on Demand model. I found certain points unexplained.
1. As Reema ji said, a scientist has a completely different mindset. He/she is not a planner/schemer -- rather sometimes he/she may not even know what to do with his creation. Its the corporation, which tries to find a purpose of that creation. It would be better if an evil corporate with whatso ever purpose deploy a scientist to achieve something.
2. There was no apparent reason for which he would want to destroy people. What would he achieve? 3. Setting up such a huge factory would need state-of-the- art infrastructure, talent, man-power, land acquising, transporation of equipment, import/production of such equipments, and then HUGE funding. The movement itself will raise suspicion among authorities. So, as per logic this is not feasible.
4. Why only dead Tribals? If you shoot in leg, then also you can capture someone?
5. The end of scientist was not at all up to the mark. He was already handling those electric man, so he must have known it was dangerous to touch them. Rather he would have created some safetly measure so that some crazy electric man should not touch him.
6. Why machine gun? Why would he need a machine gun? The did not need any defene? Also if he did then a pistol will do?
7. It was even better to kill them through electric man instead of a gun?
These are some points :-)
It was fun reading it, otherwise.
Tinkoo
One of the reasons why a mad scientist may want to enslave others gets treated at some length in Murray Leinster's "The Mutant Weapon":
<http://www.webscrip tion.net/ 10.1125/Baen/ 0743435559/ 0743435559_ _12.htm>
Whether it's plausible & realistic is a different issue. Leinster talks about possible motivations. Not exactly new ideas, but it's also a good action story that seems to have had some influence on later authors - including one of the (I think Hugo winning) stories of James Tiptree, Jr.
Caution: This story is a long one - probably a short novel length.
Zeashan - I liked the beginning of your story more than the rest of it. An insignificant aside: plain text HTML at your site encourages linking since Google translation can render at least some form of it in other languages (only a tiny percentage of my visitors are from India, & a good fraction of these are from South). On a happier note, you are fast - in turning an idea into a story. Thank you.
Reema Sarwal
Swapnil ji,
I was completely flabberga sted by your point nos. 3 and 4 !
>>"The movement itself will raise suspicion among authorities."
I'm amazed at your utopic faith in the authorities! ! They notice NOTHING. I repeat, nothing. They wouldn't notice if you transported a rocket from Point A in the Himalayas to Point B in Tamil Nadu via road.
We're talking "authorities" who don't see entire colonies being built on ground surface in the capital city of Delhi. What chance do they have, given a millennium, of having a single clue about an underground laboratory being built below a Tribal temple in the heart of a jungle? Whatever made you dream of such a thing as land acquisition in this case?
I'm also not sure what makes you talk of a "factory" -- I read it as a fairly usual lab, though advanced, with some computers, 2 human-sized glass capsules, 2 beds, medical equipment, and some laser machinery -- pretty much humdrum for SF. Besides, our scientist is employed at a high position in the government, he could easily steal most of the stuff he needed from his official lab and contacts -- that's something we obviously expect of him! He's surely not a "normal" govt. employee if he can't even do that much.
As for point no. 4, to protect urban "citizens" from "uncivilized" tribals, the orders would be loud and clear -- shoot to kill. I particularly liked the satire at the beginning of the story when one cop suggests that the entire tribal community should be exterminated. That's one of the reasons I said it was a good story-- it captures the attitudes and mindset of our society.
PS: And a minor point, >>7. It was even better to kill them through electric man instead of a gun? >> that would lead to: Option A, electric man dying by touching the prison wall before being able to touch the hero, or Option B, scientist releasing our hero from the prison to be killed by the electric man, providing the required split-second for an action-packed- Hollywood- style-special effects-heroic escape !! :)
Swapnil Arnie
{I'm amazed at your utopic faith in the authorities! ! They notice NOTHING. I repeat, nothing. They wouldn't notice if you transported a rocket from Point A in the Himalayas to Point B in Tamil Nadu via road…….as land acquisition in this case?}
Nothing happens without the notice of authorities. If they see a movement they will peep in and cite all the reasons why you can't do it. Which in other language means bribe us and carry on. Colonies were not built without notice, they were built knowing that there is no scope for 'bribery' in such cases or in case of builders, they get their share and allow construction. I live in Delhi and I know that. You see small LPG refilling shops in some areas? They did not mushroomed before authorities were indifferent, they came up because they give 500 Rs per day to the policemen. Any big movement means big money. So, they will intervene.
Well then I did not know that building an underground tunnel was such an easy task that it could be performed so easily. I dreamt of it being in open as it is said in the story it self that they came out in open.
{I'm also not sure what makes you talk of a "factory" ……."normal" govt. employee if he can't even do that much.}
Factory is a term which I would use for anykind of production. Also it is beyond my understanding to create such powerful Lasers, and such technology to change DNA without much infrastructure. But, may be it is possible. It's India anything is possible :-)
{As for point no. 4,…… and mindset of our society.}
That is the most stereotypical portrayal of police, something that attracts audience. But in case like groups, there are always chances that you might end up shooting someone not essentially in hear of heart, even by mistake.
{PS: And a minor point, >>7. It was even better to kill them through electric man instead of a gun?........Hollywood- style-special effects-heroic escape !! :)}
or C, where did the cage come from? Could the scientist create laser cage anywhere? What kind of emmence technology would be used then? But I should better not talk about that he worked for the government and he could steal anything. :-)
Good work Zeeshan and quite fast too :-)
Some issues but lemme hear from other's first.
Reema Sarwal
Zeashan ji,
Thank you for writing this story on demand !! As usual, it shows your excellent command over an intriguing setting and a racy plot that makes for an interesting read !
Um, isn't it strange that the scientist should be so careless as to be electrocuted by his own slave? But more importantly, history proves that scientists, however mad, never wish to rule the world - that's not at all what they want from life - they're happier doing more research! And in this story, there is no revenge motive either (for the scientist) to make it sound probable, nor is he doing it for some other controlling organisation.
The story also makes me feel very sad because the scientist cannot think of any productive use for his invention and such a good invention too, which could have been so good for the tribe in many other ways than saving them from the outsiders, and it is then lost to the whole world !
That said, it is still a pretty good story as it addresses the all-important issue of preserving natural habitats in such a unique fashion.
Thanks again!
Dr. Arvind Mishra
I must admit that I have an inherent inability to be non judgemental whether a particular story is good or bad .Reema has indeed raised certain logical points which I trust shall be suitably addressed by the writer-but one thing which I appreciate is the writer's ability to accept the challenge to write a story on a given theme and Zeashan has not dissappointed us. In Hindi pulp novels there has been a stereotype of a mad scientist desirous of ruling the world and Zeashan has just followed the trend –
but I APPRECIATE Reema's outlook also which portrays a scientist as an angel ! ( Being one myself ! ha ha ! ) .Thanks Reema for having such a nice attitude towards scientists !
The pitfalls apart I like the Zeashan's specific style the way he makes the plot to have an errie environment reminding me of the famous Tilism stories of CHANDRKANTAA SANTATI.
Zeashan Zaidi
Thank you Reema Ji for a deep reading and a very nice & balancing comment. And of course a story (specially Sci Fi ) generates when something happens different from usual. So I took an unusual scientist for creating my story.
Now waiting from Swapnil’s side.
Swapnil Arnie
Hi Zees Han!
As I said earlier good story, that too when delivered on Demand model. I found certain points unexplained.
1. As Reema ji said, a scientist has a completely different mindset. He/she is not a planner/schemer -- rather sometimes he/she may not even know what to do with his creation. Its the corporation, which tries to find a purpose of that creation. It would be better if an evil corporate with whatso ever purpose deploy a scientist to achieve something.
2. There was no apparent reason for which he would want to destroy people. What would he achieve? 3. Setting up such a huge factory would need state-of-the- art infrastructure, talent, man-power, land acquising, transporation of equipment, import/production of such equipments, and then HUGE funding. The movement itself will raise suspicion among authorities. So, as per logic this is not feasible.
4. Why only dead Tribals? If you shoot in leg, then also you can capture someone?
5. The end of scientist was not at all up to the mark. He was already handling those electric man, so he must have known it was dangerous to touch them. Rather he would have created some safetly measure so that some crazy electric man should not touch him.
6. Why machine gun? Why would he need a machine gun? The did not need any defene? Also if he did then a pistol will do?
7. It was even better to kill them through electric man instead of a gun?
These are some points :-)
It was fun reading it, otherwise.
Tinkoo
One of the reasons why a mad scientist may want to enslave others gets treated at some length in Murray Leinster's "The Mutant Weapon":
<http://www.webscrip tion.net/ 10.1125/Baen/ 0743435559/ 0743435559_ _12.htm>
Whether it's plausible & realistic is a different issue. Leinster talks about possible motivations. Not exactly new ideas, but it's also a good action story that seems to have had some influence on later authors - including one of the (I think Hugo winning) stories of James Tiptree, Jr.
Caution: This story is a long one - probably a short novel length.
Zeashan - I liked the beginning of your story more than the rest of it. An insignificant aside: plain text HTML at your site encourages linking since Google translation can render at least some form of it in other languages (only a tiny percentage of my visitors are from India, & a good fraction of these are from South). On a happier note, you are fast - in turning an idea into a story. Thank you.
Reema Sarwal
Swapnil ji,
I was completely flabberga sted by your point nos. 3 and 4 !
>>"The movement itself will raise suspicion among authorities."
I'm amazed at your utopic faith in the authorities! ! They notice NOTHING. I repeat, nothing. They wouldn't notice if you transported a rocket from Point A in the Himalayas to Point B in Tamil Nadu via road.
We're talking "authorities" who don't see entire colonies being built on ground surface in the capital city of Delhi. What chance do they have, given a millennium, of having a single clue about an underground laboratory being built below a Tribal temple in the heart of a jungle? Whatever made you dream of such a thing as land acquisition in this case?
I'm also not sure what makes you talk of a "factory" -- I read it as a fairly usual lab, though advanced, with some computers, 2 human-sized glass capsules, 2 beds, medical equipment, and some laser machinery -- pretty much humdrum for SF. Besides, our scientist is employed at a high position in the government, he could easily steal most of the stuff he needed from his official lab and contacts -- that's something we obviously expect of him! He's surely not a "normal" govt. employee if he can't even do that much.
As for point no. 4, to protect urban "citizens" from "uncivilized" tribals, the orders would be loud and clear -- shoot to kill. I particularly liked the satire at the beginning of the story when one cop suggests that the entire tribal community should be exterminated. That's one of the reasons I said it was a good story-- it captures the attitudes and mindset of our society.
PS: And a minor point, >>7. It was even better to kill them through electric man instead of a gun? >> that would lead to: Option A, electric man dying by touching the prison wall before being able to touch the hero, or Option B, scientist releasing our hero from the prison to be killed by the electric man, providing the required split-second for an action-packed- Hollywood- style-special effects-heroic escape !! :)
Swapnil Arnie
{I'm amazed at your utopic faith in the authorities! ! They notice NOTHING. I repeat, nothing. They wouldn't notice if you transported a rocket from Point A in the Himalayas to Point B in Tamil Nadu via road…….as land acquisition in this case?}
Nothing happens without the notice of authorities. If they see a movement they will peep in and cite all the reasons why you can't do it. Which in other language means bribe us and carry on. Colonies were not built without notice, they were built knowing that there is no scope for 'bribery' in such cases or in case of builders, they get their share and allow construction. I live in Delhi and I know that. You see small LPG refilling shops in some areas? They did not mushroomed before authorities were indifferent, they came up because they give 500 Rs per day to the policemen. Any big movement means big money. So, they will intervene.
Well then I did not know that building an underground tunnel was such an easy task that it could be performed so easily. I dreamt of it being in open as it is said in the story it self that they came out in open.
{I'm also not sure what makes you talk of a "factory" ……."normal" govt. employee if he can't even do that much.}
Factory is a term which I would use for anykind of production. Also it is beyond my understanding to create such powerful Lasers, and such technology to change DNA without much infrastructure. But, may be it is possible. It's India anything is possible :-)
{As for point no. 4,…… and mindset of our society.}
That is the most stereotypical portrayal of police, something that attracts audience. But in case like groups, there are always chances that you might end up shooting someone not essentially in hear of heart, even by mistake.
{PS: And a minor point, >>7. It was even better to kill them through electric man instead of a gun?........Hollywood- style-special effects-heroic escape !! :)}
or C, where did the cage come from? Could the scientist create laser cage anywhere? What kind of emmence technology would be used then? But I should better not talk about that he worked for the government and he could steal anything. :-)
Friday, January 2, 2009
A Short Discussion on Story Parivartan (The Change)
At Indiansciencefiction.groups.yahoo.com
Dr. Arvind Mishra
Friends,
Zeashan is my favourite sf writer who writes stories in Hindi.I just saw this story Parivartan (the change ! ) by him and thought you would also enjoy reading it ! But I am recommending this story with a purpose -to suggest an alternative end of the story as its drop scene was not somehow liked by me .I have suggested the author also to explore other poossible ends to the story and if possible rewrite it or write a sequel of it.
Would you be kind enough please to help the writer?
arvind
Cyril Gupta
Hello,
An unexpected twist at the end! Didn't see that coming at all... The
story brought a smile to me... Heh... Just need to know this, if
D'souza was indeed a robot, why did his makers have to make him
anatomically complete.... Unless he was intended to serve the purpose
that he was being put to by the protagonist' s wife. Ahem...
:) I think we need a backstory to the story... Cause that bit is
unexplained. ..
Weirdly I found the story funny... What that the intention?
Cheers Zeashan!
Cyril
Dr. Arvind Mishra
D'souza was not a robot but an Android-a humanoid in all respect !
Zeashan Zaidi
Arvind Ji,
Though in my view it was the best ending, but things can never be perfect. So thoughts from the side of creative giants are most welcome.
regards
Tinkoo
Ending was the reason I loved the story. Rest of it was rather mundane,
but ending made my day when I saw part 2 yesterday night.
Dr. Arvind Mishra
One more thing about Zeashan ' s story -its a diversion from typical Asimovian robotics premise ! Not just one but two humans have been shown to get murdered by a robot ? Is it Ok with you all ? It was the reason why I was a bit uncomfortable with the end ? Any caveat for/from Zeashan's side?
Cyril Gupta
I don't the Asimovian rules should be considered Universal. The three
laws of Robotics, and also the zero'th law were invented by Asimov so
that he could concoct his stories around them. In other science
stories there can be assassin robots, so the laws don't have to hold,
not on everybody.
I really don't think that Zeashan's story has a problem because it
violates the Asimov's robotics laws. Just that a lot of the backstory
is missing so there's a certain amount of abruptness, but surely if
there was backstory then the ending would become expected and the
surprise will be ruined.
It seems that in Zeashan's story, the robots are first-class citizens
of the society (judging from the way the protagonist treats them early
on, and then at the end). They're sentient and have similar urges and
emotions to a human being.
Regards
Tinkoo
There are far too many stories of killer robots out there - most often
as war machines.
And have you seen Jack Williamson's "With Folded Hands"? Even robots
governed by "benign" laws can do far too much damage to people around.
Unfortunately, this widely read classic doesn't seem to be online.
Asimov's Three Laws are only one of the many robot behavior premises
examined in fiction.
PS: Incidentally, Asimov tells us in one of his anthologies that his
robot stories began with ideas from Eando Binder's "I, Robot". And
Binder tells us his story is a reaction to Mary Shelly's "Frankenstein"
- that man's man-like creations need not be bad! Comic book version of
Binder's classic is online:
Cyril Gupta
Has anyone read Ray Bradbury's Marionette's Inc? That's another story
in which a married couple deceives each other using Robots, and though
the man doesn't get killed, he does witness a Robot who falls in love
with his wife...
As for killer robots, there can be nothing beyond the Berserkers who
are Death incarnate, and of course if you read pulp science fiction
then you can think of Daleks, and the Cybermen of Dr. WHO.
So I guess there's enough precedent for Zeashan's story that it
doesn't seem at odds to the established scientific norms, and even if
it were I think we should welcome it, because any new perspective on
science and its impact should be entertained. :)
Dr. Arvind Mishra
So congrats Zeashan ! your story get across well in a rogourous peer review! You come out with flying colours ! Thats graet...keep it up !
Dr. Arvind Mishra
Friends,
Zeashan is my favourite sf writer who writes stories in Hindi.I just saw this story Parivartan (the change ! ) by him and thought you would also enjoy reading it ! But I am recommending this story with a purpose -to suggest an alternative end of the story as its drop scene was not somehow liked by me .I have suggested the author also to explore other poossible ends to the story and if possible rewrite it or write a sequel of it.
Would you be kind enough please to help the writer?
arvind
Cyril Gupta
Hello,
An unexpected twist at the end! Didn't see that coming at all... The
story brought a smile to me... Heh... Just need to know this, if
D'souza was indeed a robot, why did his makers have to make him
anatomically complete.... Unless he was intended to serve the purpose
that he was being put to by the protagonist' s wife. Ahem...
:) I think we need a backstory to the story... Cause that bit is
unexplained. ..
Weirdly I found the story funny... What that the intention?
Cheers Zeashan!
Cyril
Dr. Arvind Mishra
D'souza was not a robot but an Android-a humanoid in all respect !
Zeashan Zaidi
Arvind Ji,
Though in my view it was the best ending, but things can never be perfect. So thoughts from the side of creative giants are most welcome.
regards
Tinkoo
Ending was the reason I loved the story. Rest of it was rather mundane,
but ending made my day when I saw part 2 yesterday night.
Dr. Arvind Mishra
One more thing about Zeashan ' s story -its a diversion from typical Asimovian robotics premise ! Not just one but two humans have been shown to get murdered by a robot ? Is it Ok with you all ? It was the reason why I was a bit uncomfortable with the end ? Any caveat for/from Zeashan's side?
Cyril Gupta
I don't the Asimovian rules should be considered Universal. The three
laws of Robotics, and also the zero'th law were invented by Asimov so
that he could concoct his stories around them. In other science
stories there can be assassin robots, so the laws don't have to hold,
not on everybody.
I really don't think that Zeashan's story has a problem because it
violates the Asimov's robotics laws. Just that a lot of the backstory
is missing so there's a certain amount of abruptness, but surely if
there was backstory then the ending would become expected and the
surprise will be ruined.
It seems that in Zeashan's story, the robots are first-class citizens
of the society (judging from the way the protagonist treats them early
on, and then at the end). They're sentient and have similar urges and
emotions to a human being.
Regards
Tinkoo
There are far too many stories of killer robots out there - most often
as war machines.
And have you seen Jack Williamson's "With Folded Hands"? Even robots
governed by "benign" laws can do far too much damage to people around.
Unfortunately, this widely read classic doesn't seem to be online.
Asimov's Three Laws are only one of the many robot behavior premises
examined in fiction.
PS: Incidentally, Asimov tells us in one of his anthologies that his
robot stories began with ideas from Eando Binder's "I, Robot". And
Binder tells us his story is a reaction to Mary Shelly's "Frankenstein"
- that man's man-like creations need not be bad! Comic book version of
Binder's classic is online:
Cyril Gupta
Has anyone read Ray Bradbury's Marionette's Inc? That's another story
in which a married couple deceives each other using Robots, and though
the man doesn't get killed, he does witness a Robot who falls in love
with his wife...
As for killer robots, there can be nothing beyond the Berserkers who
are Death incarnate, and of course if you read pulp science fiction
then you can think of Daleks, and the Cybermen of Dr. WHO.
So I guess there's enough precedent for Zeashan's story that it
doesn't seem at odds to the established scientific norms, and even if
it were I think we should welcome it, because any new perspective on
science and its impact should be entertained. :)
Dr. Arvind Mishra
So congrats Zeashan ! your story get across well in a rogourous peer review! You come out with flying colours ! Thats graet...keep it up !
Sunday, July 20, 2008
Hot Discussion on the story "Under Estimate" Part-2
Dr. Arvind Mishra
Ha Ha Ha ..... How funny !even the story entitled under estimate faces an under estimation.insults to injury ?
This is SIMPLY INJUSTICE !
It surely needs a reappraisal!
Swapnil Bhartiya
Dear Zeeshan,
It was not a cursory read. I actually took out one hour from my busy schedule and read it. I was not comfortable with commenting on it but I did.
So, please don't think I did not read it thoroughly.
Arvind Ji: Appraisal from whom, Zeeshan or me?
Dr. Arvind Mishra
Obviously by Zeashan on your rejoinder !
Vishwa Mohan Tiwari
Dear ZZ
Sorry to say there is a strong violation of physical laws as known today.
Induction is dynamic phenomenon.
It cannot be stored into a 'socalled MICRO body'. If stored it would cease to be dynamic chich means a continuous coonectivity with the source . Further it follows inverse 4th power law, not inverse square law, resulting into heavy loss of signal with distance.
Induction does generate an opposing force, a fact you have utilized very well.
Zeashan Zaidi
VMT Ji,
The story never said that induction “stored” into the Micro Body, but it said that the body is controlled by the induction phenomenon. And that micro body was created only when a person goes into a generating machine. That is rule of continuous connectivity never be violated.
Secondly since there is a mediator machine between the source and the micro body so there is no question of 4th power law or inverse square law.
Vishwa Mohan Tiwari
Z Z g
You said, " And that micro body was created only when a person goes into a generating machine".
Here creation of a micro body has been stated which as per my understanding needs the qualities of a different person to be ingrained, characerestics to be given, past historical info needs to be given etc.
I had said as a story it is catchy and interesting except that it is closer to sci fantasy than to SF.
Do you disagree with this statemnent?
Best wishes
vmt
Zeashan Zaidi
VMT Ji,
Good day in USA
This time we can say it is closer to science fantasy. But it is my forecast that within 20 years, the human will be able to create his own micro body.
Vishwa Mohan Tiwari
Z gee
Wish yopu all the best with your prophesy, I will be very happy to see it coming true.
Dr. Arvind Dubey
Respected VMT Ji and ZZ ji
May I interrupt u sirs, not twenty years from now, its in front of u . Pof Yamanaka from Quoto university in Japan has done it. He introduced four transcription factors in a normal cell of adult mice to convert it into an adult pleuripotant cell, I mean a cell which can create a whole animal. What are these adult pleuripotant cells, of course a micro body. If y any means it can be transported to longer distances, Zishan’s prophecy turns into a reality. However his perception of micro body is different from this, so what, Jules Burne was also having a different perception for the voyage to the moon. which later turned into the reality later on. Well done Zishan, congratulations.
Here is the original news
Shinya Yamanaka Reprograms Human Adult Cells
Into Embryonic-like Stem Cells
Breakthrough accelerates new avenues of stem cell research
SAN FRANCISCO, CA – November 20, 2007 – Acclaimed stem cell researcher Shinya Yamanaka, MD, PhD, has reported that he and his Kyoto University colleagues have successfully reprogrammed human adult cells to function like pluripotent embryonic stem cells. Because it circumvents much of the controversy and restrictions regarding generation of embryonic stem cells from human embryos, this breakthrough, reported in the journal Cell, should accelerate the pace of stem cell research.
Last year, Yamanaka, who is also a senior investigator at the Gladstone Institute of Cardiovascular Disease (GICD), reported that he and his Kyoto colleagues had reprogrammed mouse skin cells into pluripotent stem cells, laying the foundation to apply this methodology in human cells.
In this earlier work, published in Cell, Yamanaka and his colleagues identified four genetic factors that resulted in the reprogramming of adult mouse cells into induced pluripotent stem (iPS) cells capable of developing into any kind of cell. This summer, he reported in Nature that these iPS cells could even form a new mouse, making them functionally the same as embyonic stem cells. According to the new research, those same genetic factors used with human adult cells resulted in iPS cells which are nearly indistinguishable from human embryonic stem cells.
“The rapid application of this approach to human cells has dramatically changed the landscape of stem cell science,” said GICD Director Deepak Srivastava, MD. “Dr. Yamanaka's work is monumental in its importance to the field of stem cell science and its potential impact on our ability to accelerate the benefits of this technology to the bedside. Not only does this discovery enable more research, it offers a new pathway to apply the benefits of stem cells to human disease.”
“Dr. Yamanaka and his group have made yet another extremely important contribution to the stem cell field,” said Richard Murphy, interim president of the California Institute for Regenerative Medicine (CIRM). “Their results open the door to generating alternative sources of pluripotent cells from patients, which is a major step forward. However, much work still needs to be done to fully characterize and understand the capacity of these induced pluripotent cells to study and to treat human diseases.”
While Yamanaka's work would seem to eliminate the need for controversial research on human embryos, both he and Srivastava emphasized that research must continue. “We are still a long way from finding cures or therapies from stem cells and we don’t know what processes will be effective,” Yamanaka said.
CIRM's Murphy added, “Dr. Yamanaka's work, which uses viral vectors to introduce into cells pluripotency- associated genes, further emphasizes the critical need we have to continue working with naturally occurring human embryonic stem cells, which remain the gold standard against which all alternative sources of human pluripotent stem cells must be tested.”
According to Yamanaka, the next steps will be to understand how these cells can be differentiated into other types of cells and ultimately how they can be used to study disease models and as potential therapies. “We are now finally in a position to make patient-specific stem cells for therapies without fear of immune-rejection and to make disease-specific stem cells that will reveal the underlying cause of many human diseases” he said.
Prof Shinya Yamanaka
Ha Ha Ha ..... How funny !even the story entitled under estimate faces an under estimation.insults to injury ?
This is SIMPLY INJUSTICE !
It surely needs a reappraisal!
Swapnil Bhartiya
Dear Zeeshan,
It was not a cursory read. I actually took out one hour from my busy schedule and read it. I was not comfortable with commenting on it but I did.
So, please don't think I did not read it thoroughly.
Arvind Ji: Appraisal from whom, Zeeshan or me?
Dr. Arvind Mishra
Obviously by Zeashan on your rejoinder !
Vishwa Mohan Tiwari
Dear ZZ
Sorry to say there is a strong violation of physical laws as known today.
Induction is dynamic phenomenon.
It cannot be stored into a 'socalled MICRO body'. If stored it would cease to be dynamic chich means a continuous coonectivity with the source . Further it follows inverse 4th power law, not inverse square law, resulting into heavy loss of signal with distance.
Induction does generate an opposing force, a fact you have utilized very well.
Zeashan Zaidi
VMT Ji,
The story never said that induction “stored” into the Micro Body, but it said that the body is controlled by the induction phenomenon. And that micro body was created only when a person goes into a generating machine. That is rule of continuous connectivity never be violated.
Secondly since there is a mediator machine between the source and the micro body so there is no question of 4th power law or inverse square law.
Vishwa Mohan Tiwari
Z Z g
You said, " And that micro body was created only when a person goes into a generating machine".
Here creation of a micro body has been stated which as per my understanding needs the qualities of a different person to be ingrained, characerestics to be given, past historical info needs to be given etc.
I had said as a story it is catchy and interesting except that it is closer to sci fantasy than to SF.
Do you disagree with this statemnent?
Best wishes
vmt
Zeashan Zaidi
VMT Ji,
Good day in USA
This time we can say it is closer to science fantasy. But it is my forecast that within 20 years, the human will be able to create his own micro body.
Vishwa Mohan Tiwari
Z gee
Wish yopu all the best with your prophesy, I will be very happy to see it coming true.
Dr. Arvind Dubey
Respected VMT Ji and ZZ ji
May I interrupt u sirs, not twenty years from now, its in front of u . Pof Yamanaka from Quoto university in Japan has done it. He introduced four transcription factors in a normal cell of adult mice to convert it into an adult pleuripotant cell, I mean a cell which can create a whole animal. What are these adult pleuripotant cells, of course a micro body. If y any means it can be transported to longer distances, Zishan’s prophecy turns into a reality. However his perception of micro body is different from this, so what, Jules Burne was also having a different perception for the voyage to the moon. which later turned into the reality later on. Well done Zishan, congratulations.
Here is the original news
Shinya Yamanaka Reprograms Human Adult Cells
Into Embryonic-like Stem Cells
Breakthrough accelerates new avenues of stem cell research
SAN FRANCISCO, CA – November 20, 2007 – Acclaimed stem cell researcher Shinya Yamanaka, MD, PhD, has reported that he and his Kyoto University colleagues have successfully reprogrammed human adult cells to function like pluripotent embryonic stem cells. Because it circumvents much of the controversy and restrictions regarding generation of embryonic stem cells from human embryos, this breakthrough, reported in the journal Cell, should accelerate the pace of stem cell research.
Last year, Yamanaka, who is also a senior investigator at the Gladstone Institute of Cardiovascular Disease (GICD), reported that he and his Kyoto colleagues had reprogrammed mouse skin cells into pluripotent stem cells, laying the foundation to apply this methodology in human cells.
In this earlier work, published in Cell, Yamanaka and his colleagues identified four genetic factors that resulted in the reprogramming of adult mouse cells into induced pluripotent stem (iPS) cells capable of developing into any kind of cell. This summer, he reported in Nature that these iPS cells could even form a new mouse, making them functionally the same as embyonic stem cells. According to the new research, those same genetic factors used with human adult cells resulted in iPS cells which are nearly indistinguishable from human embryonic stem cells.
“The rapid application of this approach to human cells has dramatically changed the landscape of stem cell science,” said GICD Director Deepak Srivastava, MD. “Dr. Yamanaka's work is monumental in its importance to the field of stem cell science and its potential impact on our ability to accelerate the benefits of this technology to the bedside. Not only does this discovery enable more research, it offers a new pathway to apply the benefits of stem cells to human disease.”
“Dr. Yamanaka and his group have made yet another extremely important contribution to the stem cell field,” said Richard Murphy, interim president of the California Institute for Regenerative Medicine (CIRM). “Their results open the door to generating alternative sources of pluripotent cells from patients, which is a major step forward. However, much work still needs to be done to fully characterize and understand the capacity of these induced pluripotent cells to study and to treat human diseases.”
While Yamanaka's work would seem to eliminate the need for controversial research on human embryos, both he and Srivastava emphasized that research must continue. “We are still a long way from finding cures or therapies from stem cells and we don’t know what processes will be effective,” Yamanaka said.
CIRM's Murphy added, “Dr. Yamanaka's work, which uses viral vectors to introduce into cells pluripotency- associated genes, further emphasizes the critical need we have to continue working with naturally occurring human embryonic stem cells, which remain the gold standard against which all alternative sources of human pluripotent stem cells must be tested.”
According to Yamanaka, the next steps will be to understand how these cells can be differentiated into other types of cells and ultimately how they can be used to study disease models and as potential therapies. “We are now finally in a position to make patient-specific stem cells for therapies without fear of immune-rejection and to make disease-specific stem cells that will reveal the underlying cause of many human diseases” he said.
Prof Shinya Yamanaka
Tuesday, July 15, 2008
Hot Discussion on the story "Under Estimate" Part-1
Dr. Arvind Mishra
Under Estimate
The above captioned science fantasy of Zeashan is an attempt to rationalize whether a man could leave its body and travel beyond in its 'energy' form ? Such descriptions could be found in many of our scriptures where sages have been shown to possess this amazing power of leaving temporarily their bodies as and when required to meet some noble causes and then return /enter back to/into their original bodies.They have also been shown to even occupy some other vacant [dead] bodies when such needs arise. Termed as 'Parkayaa Pravesh'[entering the other body] this phenomenon of our folklores have fascinated us since long.
Now here is a science fantasy on it ! A daring task accepted and successfully carried out by Zeashan.
Good work Zeashan.Keep it up !
Gene, please tell if you remember any story on similar concept in western sf ?
Vishwa Mohan Tiwari
Z zee,
This story has got storyness all right but totally incredible to my science trained mind.
You have got a forcefull style, but not enough science in the story.
Zeashan Zaidi
to VMT Ji,
Thank you for comments.
"When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong. "
Arthur C. Clarke,
Swapnil Bhartiya
The UnderEstimate
1. Plot is very loose and cliche...an Indian scientist developing a
machine...the conversation is also not that matured...
2. Deneil wearing a shirtless tie and etc....not that matured....
3. I am not a physist, yet, that was a weak interpretation of electric
current and converting it to create micro body.
4. And there are amny weak points...how could the be interacting with
teh micro body where Deniel says that the point of light anand was
looking at were actually being viewed by the Micro Body, how would Anand
interact with his own Micro body.
5. And while Anand was not able to touch those point how come Gautan
took control and went out of the room.
6. The entire concept of Neha's electric charge fighting with Gautam
doesnt make any sense....
7....
8.....
9....
10.....
So, I would not rate that as a very good story in terms of 'fiction',
'technically' or logically.
I would go by VMT's view.
Also, VMT ji didn't say it's impossible to counter which ZZ quoted
Clarke. This story is not about making impossible possible, this story
is about making some sense, which it seems to not make, at least for
me...
And people say, I can be wrong.
Vishwa Mohan Tiwari
I need to clarify what I meant. I didn't say what you have stated is impossible,
I said it lacks credibility, in the sense the phenomenon of induction has been stretched beyond the known limits of science , I may say to the level of fantasy.
Your story may be a science fantasy but not science fiction.
I would be very happy if I turnout to be WRONG.
I could have kept Quiet or praised it to the sky, but I felt the truth must be spoken, of course truth as I perceive it.
I am sorry if I have offended you.
Dr. Arvind Mishra
to VMT JI,
Your stand is loud and clear.....Z's story is fantastic
regards,
Zeashan Zaidi
to VMT Ji,
I am agreeing with you. Of course, my concept is beyond the current limit of science. But as the main motive of science fiction is to look upon future possibilities based on present scientific discoveries, and the story fulfils this condition.
My question is, 'is there any violation of present scientific concepts in the story?’ If ‘not’ then it is a science fiction.
Zeashan Zaidi
Dear Swapnil,
Some of your points of objection are regarding style of the story. Therefore no comment.
And other objections are not actually lying in the story. So avoid cursory reading and study again.
This is actually your under estimation about the story.
Under Estimate
The above captioned science fantasy of Zeashan is an attempt to rationalize whether a man could leave its body and travel beyond in its 'energy' form ? Such descriptions could be found in many of our scriptures where sages have been shown to possess this amazing power of leaving temporarily their bodies as and when required to meet some noble causes and then return /enter back to/into their original bodies.They have also been shown to even occupy some other vacant [dead] bodies when such needs arise. Termed as 'Parkayaa Pravesh'[entering the other body] this phenomenon of our folklores have fascinated us since long.
Now here is a science fantasy on it ! A daring task accepted and successfully carried out by Zeashan.
Good work Zeashan.Keep it up !
Gene, please tell if you remember any story on similar concept in western sf ?
Vishwa Mohan Tiwari
Z zee,
This story has got storyness all right but totally incredible to my science trained mind.
You have got a forcefull style, but not enough science in the story.
Zeashan Zaidi
to VMT Ji,
Thank you for comments.
"When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong. "
Arthur C. Clarke,
Swapnil Bhartiya
The UnderEstimate
1. Plot is very loose and cliche...an Indian scientist developing a
machine...the conversation is also not that matured...
2. Deneil wearing a shirtless tie and etc....not that matured....
3. I am not a physist, yet, that was a weak interpretation of electric
current and converting it to create micro body.
4. And there are amny weak points...how could the be interacting with
teh micro body where Deniel says that the point of light anand was
looking at were actually being viewed by the Micro Body, how would Anand
interact with his own Micro body.
5. And while Anand was not able to touch those point how come Gautan
took control and went out of the room.
6. The entire concept of Neha's electric charge fighting with Gautam
doesnt make any sense....
7....
8.....
9....
10.....
So, I would not rate that as a very good story in terms of 'fiction',
'technically' or logically.
I would go by VMT's view.
Also, VMT ji didn't say it's impossible to counter which ZZ quoted
Clarke. This story is not about making impossible possible, this story
is about making some sense, which it seems to not make, at least for
me...
And people say, I can be wrong.
Vishwa Mohan Tiwari
I need to clarify what I meant. I didn't say what you have stated is impossible,
I said it lacks credibility, in the sense the phenomenon of induction has been stretched beyond the known limits of science , I may say to the level of fantasy.
Your story may be a science fantasy but not science fiction.
I would be very happy if I turnout to be WRONG.
I could have kept Quiet or praised it to the sky, but I felt the truth must be spoken, of course truth as I perceive it.
I am sorry if I have offended you.
Dr. Arvind Mishra
to VMT JI,
Your stand is loud and clear.....Z's story is fantastic
regards,
Zeashan Zaidi
to VMT Ji,
I am agreeing with you. Of course, my concept is beyond the current limit of science. But as the main motive of science fiction is to look upon future possibilities based on present scientific discoveries, and the story fulfils this condition.
My question is, 'is there any violation of present scientific concepts in the story?’ If ‘not’ then it is a science fiction.
Zeashan Zaidi
Dear Swapnil,
Some of your points of objection are regarding style of the story. Therefore no comment.
And other objections are not actually lying in the story. So avoid cursory reading and study again.
This is actually your under estimation about the story.
Wednesday, May 28, 2008
कहानी "ऊंचाइयों के पार" पर जीशान जैदी का उत्तर स्वप्निल भारतीय को
Nice points raised by Swapnil. It is my pleasure that someone think on my story so deeply. The Explanations are.
1.To understand mathematical concept of dimensions. To predict aliens of other dimensions and to raise some theories regarding dreams. Yes, it does not raise any global problem or teach moral values.
2. Of course dimension is a fundamental concept of vector mathematics and physics.
(a) Picture was not alive. She saw everything in dreams. Everything in unconscious mind.
(b) There is no point of time contraction in the story.
(c) Love of first sight. Of course the aliens of other dimensions have so much power that they can contact with our dimensions. But not physically. This is why he came only in dreams of girl.
3. Not physically. But through the other ways like telepathy, dreams etc, he contacted to the girl.
4. That is the case of his boy friend. There are many cases in history where a couple found a baby, though their medical report comes out to be negative. Here I introduced a thought that such cases may be the result of combination of a person with some alien.
5. As already mentioned in the story they have no definite shape, but can take any shape like a shade due to their low dimensions. Their purpose of taking shape was to look them by the girl. Otherwise there was no need to take a shape. Here I also kept in mind the younger reader level of Vigyan Pragati.
6. Story must have some interesting fantasy for younger people.
7. Already explained
8. Already explained
And after all this is not a research paper, just a story which must have room for imaginations beyond the facts.
Thank You
Zeashan Zaidi
1.To understand mathematical concept of dimensions. To predict aliens of other dimensions and to raise some theories regarding dreams. Yes, it does not raise any global problem or teach moral values.
2. Of course dimension is a fundamental concept of vector mathematics and physics.
(a) Picture was not alive. She saw everything in dreams. Everything in unconscious mind.
(b) There is no point of time contraction in the story.
(c) Love of first sight. Of course the aliens of other dimensions have so much power that they can contact with our dimensions. But not physically. This is why he came only in dreams of girl.
3. Not physically. But through the other ways like telepathy, dreams etc, he contacted to the girl.
4. That is the case of his boy friend. There are many cases in history where a couple found a baby, though their medical report comes out to be negative. Here I introduced a thought that such cases may be the result of combination of a person with some alien.
5. As already mentioned in the story they have no definite shape, but can take any shape like a shade due to their low dimensions. Their purpose of taking shape was to look them by the girl. Otherwise there was no need to take a shape. Here I also kept in mind the younger reader level of Vigyan Pragati.
6. Story must have some interesting fantasy for younger people.
7. Already explained
8. Already explained
And after all this is not a research paper, just a story which must have room for imaginations beyond the facts.
Thank You
Zeashan Zaidi
कहानी "ऊंचाइयों के पार" पर जीशान जैदी का उत्तर डॉ. अरविंद दुबे को
Dear Arvind Dubey Ji and other friends,
You can see in the story that
1. Nowhere is medical science in the story except a Doctor said that the girl is pregnant.
2.Nowhere any of the present scientific rules violated.
3.Bounded within the above rule no.-1, I took the complete liberty of imaginations.
4.Mathematical concept of dimensions I explained here in an interesting way.
5.Took possibilities of aliens in a very new dimensional way.
6.Some psychological theories regarding dreams etc. mentioned in the story.
Therefore it is a science fantasy.
Thanks for comments
Zeashan Zaidi
You can see in the story that
1. Nowhere is medical science in the story except a Doctor said that the girl is pregnant.
2.Nowhere any of the present scientific rules violated.
3.Bounded within the above rule no.-1, I took the complete liberty of imaginations.
4.Mathematical concept of dimensions I explained here in an interesting way.
5.Took possibilities of aliens in a very new dimensional way.
6.Some psychological theories regarding dreams etc. mentioned in the story.
Therefore it is a science fantasy.
Thanks for comments
Zeashan Zaidi
कहानी "ऊंचाइयों के पार" पर स्वप्निल भारतीय का कमेन्ट व प्रश्न
Dear All,
I would concur with Dr Dubey's views. However, as per my perception,
the story goes weak in connectivity, logic as well as scientific
explanations.
1. Message of the story? What possible message does the author want to
send out?
2. Logic: First I have reservations about the other dimensions? There
is endless debate about more or less dimensions -- I wrote a piece for
'Avishkaar' magazine some 10 years ago on the same.
(a) What was the point of bringing a picture alive?
(b) What was the point of time contraction?
(c) How could that man interact with this girl? Does he have special
powers, if yes why? Why no one else saw him? Why he choose only this
girl? (any history between the two)
3. Then there is a point where author contradicts himself -- at one
point he says that the man cannot interact with the world of the girl,
then how come he had sex with her? I mean how could the spears (if
any) from other dimensions fertile the eggs of our dimension?
4. What was the dimension of the baby. The man said, she could not
raise the baby in her world as it belongs to other dimension, if this
is the case, how could the doctor detects that she is pregnant? And
how could she give birth to a baby in 4-D?
5. The arrival of those 'people' from other dimension in form of fly
and then converting into elephant is just beyond my senses? How could
they take shape of insects and animals from our dimensions?
6. And will the 'samraat' of such a world would be out monitoring
people? Strange, such a weak or low level or administration? And what
a mode of punishment -- cannibalism? Beyond explanation again?
7. How were they able to interact with the girl?
8. The point of her BF raping her and then the Revelation that he was
impotent seem to be injected without any point?
7. There are questions after questions about the logical explanation
of the story, these are just the few...and I don't know should I raise
others...
From the point of logic, science and story development it is not a
good work.
I expect something better from the ink of Zeeshan :-)
Swapnil
I would concur with Dr Dubey's views. However, as per my perception,
the story goes weak in connectivity, logic as well as scientific
explanations.
1. Message of the story? What possible message does the author want to
send out?
2. Logic: First I have reservations about the other dimensions? There
is endless debate about more or less dimensions -- I wrote a piece for
'Avishkaar' magazine some 10 years ago on the same.
(a) What was the point of bringing a picture alive?
(b) What was the point of time contraction?
(c) How could that man interact with this girl? Does he have special
powers, if yes why? Why no one else saw him? Why he choose only this
girl? (any history between the two)
3. Then there is a point where author contradicts himself -- at one
point he says that the man cannot interact with the world of the girl,
then how come he had sex with her? I mean how could the spears (if
any) from other dimensions fertile the eggs of our dimension?
4. What was the dimension of the baby. The man said, she could not
raise the baby in her world as it belongs to other dimension, if this
is the case, how could the doctor detects that she is pregnant? And
how could she give birth to a baby in 4-D?
5. The arrival of those 'people' from other dimension in form of fly
and then converting into elephant is just beyond my senses? How could
they take shape of insects and animals from our dimensions?
6. And will the 'samraat' of such a world would be out monitoring
people? Strange, such a weak or low level or administration? And what
a mode of punishment -- cannibalism? Beyond explanation again?
7. How were they able to interact with the girl?
8. The point of her BF raping her and then the Revelation that he was
impotent seem to be injected without any point?
7. There are questions after questions about the logical explanation
of the story, these are just the few...and I don't know should I raise
others...
From the point of logic, science and story development it is not a
good work.
I expect something better from the ink of Zeeshan :-)
Swapnil
कहानी "ऊंचाइयों के पार" पर डॉ. अरविंद दुबे का प्रश्न
RESPECTED ZEESHAN JEE
REGARDS.
MY QUARY WHAT WE SHOULD CALL IT, A SC. FICTION, SC. FANTASY OR SIMPLY A FANTASY OR STORY BSED ON WIERED ASSUMPTIONS. BECAUSE IT DOESN'T GO WITH ANY POSSIBLE OR PLAUSSIBLE MEDICAL PROCESS. BECAUSE I AM NOT VERY GOOD ON THE SUBJECT OF SC FICTION BUT MEDICALLY I AM FINDING IT VERY HARD TO DIGEST.
HOWEVER CONGRATULATIONS AND THANKS FOR A GOOD READING
REGARDS
ARVIND DUBEY
REGARDS.
MY QUARY WHAT WE SHOULD CALL IT, A SC. FICTION, SC. FANTASY OR SIMPLY A FANTASY OR STORY BSED ON WIERED ASSUMPTIONS. BECAUSE IT DOESN'T GO WITH ANY POSSIBLE OR PLAUSSIBLE MEDICAL PROCESS. BECAUSE I AM NOT VERY GOOD ON THE SUBJECT OF SC FICTION BUT MEDICALLY I AM FINDING IT VERY HARD TO DIGEST.
HOWEVER CONGRATULATIONS AND THANKS FOR A GOOD READING
REGARDS
ARVIND DUBEY
Thursday, March 27, 2008
Post by Dr.Arvind Mishra on "The Invisible Man"
With the post of VMT the debate seems to have reached to a turning point involving the dimensions of birth and rebirth.
1-the belief in rebirth is firmly rooted in Hindu way of life,though Buddhism is an atheist religion yet its adherents have belief in rebirth.Having pointed out this I must submit that since the methodology of science has yet not approved the phenomenon I fail to accept it as such.
2-Is it that gods takes reincarnation and all mortals take rebirth -or both are the same thing in essence-what philosophers say ?
3-Though the Hindu religion do have faith in rebirths,especially the people with puritanical and traditional approach do have such beliefs the voice of dissents have also been prominent.
.Like the one from Charvaak an atheist sage told emphatically about 3000 years ago that -
Yavat jeevet sukham jeevet,
rinam kritva ghritam peevet
Bhasmavibhutashy shareerashy
PUNARAAGAMANAM KUTAH
Loosely translated it would look like this-
Eat drink and be merry unto the last breath
bother not even if you are in heavy debt
Once the body goes on pyre and gets burnt
it never comes back.[Hindus' dead body is burnt]
While I do not concede to the upper part of the poem I do feel that Charvaak was right in his conclusion.
1-the belief in rebirth is firmly rooted in Hindu way of life,though Buddhism is an atheist religion yet its adherents have belief in rebirth.Having pointed out this I must submit that since the methodology of science has yet not approved the phenomenon I fail to accept it as such.
2-Is it that gods takes reincarnation and all mortals take rebirth -or both are the same thing in essence-what philosophers say ?
3-Though the Hindu religion do have faith in rebirths,especially the people with puritanical and traditional approach do have such beliefs the voice of dissents have also been prominent.
.Like the one from Charvaak an atheist sage told emphatically about 3000 years ago that -
Yavat jeevet sukham jeevet,
rinam kritva ghritam peevet
Bhasmavibhutashy shareerashy
PUNARAAGAMANAM KUTAH
Loosely translated it would look like this-
Eat drink and be merry unto the last breath
bother not even if you are in heavy debt
Once the body goes on pyre and gets burnt
it never comes back.[Hindus' dead body is burnt]
While I do not concede to the upper part of the poem I do feel that Charvaak was right in his conclusion.
Further on "The Invisible Man" by Mr. Vishwa Mohan Tiwari
Futurology is a difficult subject, even scientists can make a fool of
themselves.
Science answers 'How', and philosophy answers 'Why'.
But science converts many 'why' questions into 'how' questions. "Why is
the sky blue?"
has been answered by explaining how it is blue.
Intution is like differentiation and integration, as CMN has said. It
works on the data stored in the memory.
Intuition is also detecting patterns, and creating patterns, science
also does that.
Intuition is not so reliable as science is, however it does not mean
that
mental intution should be disdained or rejected out right.
Dreams are the result of functioning of subconscious mind, but how can
they give information
which is not available to the dreamer? (Assuming that the account given
by the dreamer is reliable.)
There are ESP like telepathy etc that science cannot explain yet.
Rebirth is a complex subject. Ian Stevenson spent his life studying the
rebirth cases.
He thought that majority of them were genuine, but acceoted that they
cannot be explained.
On rebirth, whose rebirth? The body's, the mind?, the sould?
Body and mind are burnt or buried dead, so there cannot be their
rebirth.
Souls's rebirth? It depends upon the definition of soul. It is an
interesting topic so I would leave it here as it is not science yet.
Science and philosophy and aadhyaatm all are essential for a happy
life.
shubh kaamanaayayn
themselves.
Science answers 'How', and philosophy answers 'Why'.
But science converts many 'why' questions into 'how' questions. "Why is
the sky blue?"
has been answered by explaining how it is blue.
Intution is like differentiation and integration, as CMN has said. It
works on the data stored in the memory.
Intuition is also detecting patterns, and creating patterns, science
also does that.
Intuition is not so reliable as science is, however it does not mean
that
mental intution should be disdained or rejected out right.
Dreams are the result of functioning of subconscious mind, but how can
they give information
which is not available to the dreamer? (Assuming that the account given
by the dreamer is reliable.)
There are ESP like telepathy etc that science cannot explain yet.
Rebirth is a complex subject. Ian Stevenson spent his life studying the
rebirth cases.
He thought that majority of them were genuine, but acceoted that they
cannot be explained.
On rebirth, whose rebirth? The body's, the mind?, the sould?
Body and mind are burnt or buried dead, so there cannot be their
rebirth.
Souls's rebirth? It depends upon the definition of soul. It is an
interesting topic so I would leave it here as it is not science yet.
Science and philosophy and aadhyaatm all are essential for a happy
life.
shubh kaamanaayayn
Post of Dr.C.M.Nautiyal on "The Invisible Man"
I am happy as I find echo in what BKS jee wrote elsewhere (but before me).
A great German physicist bemoaned at the turn of 20th century syaing that he pitied the furture generation of physicists as everything had been discovered and nothing was left! Theory of Quantum and Relativity came after this!
President of the Royal Society ridiculed the efforts of poeple trying to talk of aircraft. It was end of the 19th century. He termed it foolish because nothng heavier than air could fly. In 1893, a few years after that, illiterate Wright brothers (bicycle mechanics) flew first plane! So BKS jee is very right that science doesn't know everything at least yet. We haven't even found the boundaries of science. So there are many issues which ought to be left open but this doesn't stop us to try to understand nature in a cause and effect framework.
Another thing we must appreciate is that even in science, we progress by going towards more and more general laws. At the end there is something which is hypothesis. But this hypothesis explains many things without invoking more hypotheses. We understand many phenomena by considering that gravity cause objects to attract each other. But why should matter have gravitational property? We don't know. However, by one single hypothesis, we are able to explain many things. Similarly classical mechanics explained many things. But then came the more generalised theory, relativity, of which classical mechanics was a special case.
But history tells us that science has been progressing as BKS jee also says. So may be with time we shall have better and better theories. I am not sure if the limitation is ours or of science at present.
Sometimes I feel that intuition is like analytical approach in intehration (integral calculus) while our, scientists' ,approach is like numerical integration. The numerical approach is somewhat clumsy, long, not 100 % accurate but suffices. But everyone doesn't have intuition so the clumsy approach is also needed.
Just like our audible range is ~20- 20 000 cycles/sec (Hz), bats may have extended range for sending and receiving. Rats and some others may have extended senses. Al explainable by science. A tweeter is richer on the high frequency side, the bigger speaker on the bass side. Man is not supriorin all respects.
As for the dreams, I have an alternative explanation based on selective memory. We remember only those dreams that turned out be true. Our subconcious mind remains active even when we appear to be sleeping. During that period, it makes infinite combinations of images, sound bites etc. experienced durin awakened atage. If something is remembered and an event tuerns out to be similar, we go on repating it to others as well as ourselves, again reinforcing it.
As for rebirth, I don't know of any well documented report, in a scientific manner. But will appreciate if some one can provide one.
Again, the right note to end at is: We still know too little. But must strive.
A great German physicist bemoaned at the turn of 20th century syaing that he pitied the furture generation of physicists as everything had been discovered and nothing was left! Theory of Quantum and Relativity came after this!
President of the Royal Society ridiculed the efforts of poeple trying to talk of aircraft. It was end of the 19th century. He termed it foolish because nothng heavier than air could fly. In 1893, a few years after that, illiterate Wright brothers (bicycle mechanics) flew first plane! So BKS jee is very right that science doesn't know everything at least yet. We haven't even found the boundaries of science. So there are many issues which ought to be left open but this doesn't stop us to try to understand nature in a cause and effect framework.
Another thing we must appreciate is that even in science, we progress by going towards more and more general laws. At the end there is something which is hypothesis. But this hypothesis explains many things without invoking more hypotheses. We understand many phenomena by considering that gravity cause objects to attract each other. But why should matter have gravitational property? We don't know. However, by one single hypothesis, we are able to explain many things. Similarly classical mechanics explained many things. But then came the more generalised theory, relativity, of which classical mechanics was a special case.
But history tells us that science has been progressing as BKS jee also says. So may be with time we shall have better and better theories. I am not sure if the limitation is ours or of science at present.
Sometimes I feel that intuition is like analytical approach in intehration (integral calculus) while our, scientists' ,approach is like numerical integration. The numerical approach is somewhat clumsy, long, not 100 % accurate but suffices. But everyone doesn't have intuition so the clumsy approach is also needed.
Just like our audible range is ~20- 20 000 cycles/sec (Hz), bats may have extended range for sending and receiving. Rats and some others may have extended senses. Al explainable by science. A tweeter is richer on the high frequency side, the bigger speaker on the bass side. Man is not supriorin all respects.
As for the dreams, I have an alternative explanation based on selective memory. We remember only those dreams that turned out be true. Our subconcious mind remains active even when we appear to be sleeping. During that period, it makes infinite combinations of images, sound bites etc. experienced durin awakened atage. If something is remembered and an event tuerns out to be similar, we go on repating it to others as well as ourselves, again reinforcing it.
As for rebirth, I don't know of any well documented report, in a scientific manner. But will appreciate if some one can provide one.
Again, the right note to end at is: We still know too little. But must strive.
Reply by me on "The Invisible Man"
Friends,
I am agreeing with Nautiyal Ji that Soul and Djinns are not same. But one thing is common that both are not matter. Since in the universe only two things are known, matter and energy. So in our system if something is not matter, then it will be energy. However in theory we can’t refuse other possibilities like antimatter, higher/lower dimensional things, negative universe, hyperspaces and so on. The question raised by Nautiyal Ji “Can a djinn be having field without having mass?” I think it is possible. Photons interact with themselves, but very rarely. And usually only on special circumstances. Otherwise it would be a very strange world to experience visually. This is a 1973 paper describing the process:
http://www.slac. stanford. edu/cgi-wrap/ getdoc/slac- pub-1303. pdf
And this explains photon-photon scattering
http://www.springer link.com/ content/emdy0a1g 99hejq41/
Since The photons may be generated in the object or scattered/ reflected by the object. If the object in the said video is a Djinn then it can generate more and more photons and so the sufficient amount of light shown in the photograph.
http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=Y9201og_ n8M
Now the Swapnil’s question “If negative mass exists can we connect it with the form of energy we call soul?” I think positivity and negativity is just a game of definition. If we consider mass of antimatter as negative mass then its possibility to become soul is eliminated because soul simultaneously lies with material body, but not matter and antimatter can be together.
If we assume that holy Quran is from God, according to his statement “Glory to God exalted beyond all, who created in pairs all things that earth produces, as well as their own selves and all other things of which you know nothing.” Everything has its opposite. Existence of gravity means existence of anti-gravity, matter existence implies antimatter exists. Time implies negative-time, mass implies negative mass. Space implies anti-space and so on.
Next interesting question is “can gravity be created by just energy without needing mass?” A well known phenomenon is that photons attracts towards black holes. It means there exists gravitational force between mass & energy similar to force between mass – mass.
Following Wikipedia statement clears the picture:
“Since photons contribute to the stress-energy tensor, they exert a gravitational attraction on other objects, according to the theory of general relativity. Conversely, photons are themselves affected by gravity; their normally straight trajectories may be bent by warped spacetime, as in gravitational lensing, and their frequencies may be lowered by moving to a higher gravitational potential, as in the Pound-Rebka experiment. However, these effects are not specific to photons; exactly the same effects would be predicted for classical electromagnetic waves.”
Finally,
Many fascinating results are possible with camera tricks and postproduction. But the million-dollar question is whether the said video and photographs used the tricks?
I am agreeing with Nautiyal Ji that Soul and Djinns are not same. But one thing is common that both are not matter. Since in the universe only two things are known, matter and energy. So in our system if something is not matter, then it will be energy. However in theory we can’t refuse other possibilities like antimatter, higher/lower dimensional things, negative universe, hyperspaces and so on. The question raised by Nautiyal Ji “Can a djinn be having field without having mass?” I think it is possible. Photons interact with themselves, but very rarely. And usually only on special circumstances. Otherwise it would be a very strange world to experience visually. This is a 1973 paper describing the process:
http://www.slac. stanford. edu/cgi-wrap/ getdoc/slac- pub-1303. pdf
And this explains photon-photon scattering
http://www.springer link.com/ content/emdy0a1g 99hejq41/
Since The photons may be generated in the object or scattered/ reflected by the object. If the object in the said video is a Djinn then it can generate more and more photons and so the sufficient amount of light shown in the photograph.
http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=Y9201og_ n8M
Now the Swapnil’s question “If negative mass exists can we connect it with the form of energy we call soul?” I think positivity and negativity is just a game of definition. If we consider mass of antimatter as negative mass then its possibility to become soul is eliminated because soul simultaneously lies with material body, but not matter and antimatter can be together.
If we assume that holy Quran is from God, according to his statement “Glory to God exalted beyond all, who created in pairs all things that earth produces, as well as their own selves and all other things of which you know nothing.” Everything has its opposite. Existence of gravity means existence of anti-gravity, matter existence implies antimatter exists. Time implies negative-time, mass implies negative mass. Space implies anti-space and so on.
Next interesting question is “can gravity be created by just energy without needing mass?” A well known phenomenon is that photons attracts towards black holes. It means there exists gravitational force between mass & energy similar to force between mass – mass.
Following Wikipedia statement clears the picture:
“Since photons contribute to the stress-energy tensor, they exert a gravitational attraction on other objects, according to the theory of general relativity. Conversely, photons are themselves affected by gravity; their normally straight trajectories may be bent by warped spacetime, as in gravitational lensing, and their frequencies may be lowered by moving to a higher gravitational potential, as in the Pound-Rebka experiment. However, these effects are not specific to photons; exactly the same effects would be predicted for classical electromagnetic waves.”
Finally,
Many fascinating results are possible with camera tricks and postproduction. But the million-dollar question is whether the said video and photographs used the tricks?
Mr. Bimal Srivastava post on "The Invisible Man"
?..One of the most unfortunate part of today's so-called modern science is that normally we take it for granted that what ever is known to us is the ultimate thing, and nothing else need be discovered in future. And this has been the practice since ages. For example, during the days of Socrates and Aristotle, it was thought that the Sun rotates around earth and they thought this was their supreme fact. Thus when Galileo gave the theory of Sun as stationary and earth rotating around it, in the eighteenth Century, he was imprisoned.
Similarly, in eighteenth Century, if someone could have told that it was possible to send pictures, sound, speech etc (TV) from one corner of the world to the other corner through invisible rays within a fraction of a second, even a high rated scientist would have thought that the fellow had gone nuts. In nineteenth Century, and even in early twentieth century no scientist could have believed that it was possible to copy the complete library of many thousand books on a small piece of magnetic disc and reproduce the same in no time through a machine called computer.
When we try to explain every phenomenon as per today's science, it becomes extremely difficult to do so. But since the Science is progressing very fast, can't we think that may be after 200, 300, 500 or 1000 years from now Science may discover some entirely new theories that may find a solution for today's unexplained facts.
We all know that we human being are equipped with only 5 sense organs viz. vision, hearing, smell, taste and fell. Some people are of the belief that there is something called the sixth sense, through which it may be possible to sense something which may be beyond human power and imagination. Perhaps it may not be possible to explain the sixth sense in words, as the human compatibility does not permit us to do so. It is something like telling a frog of a well, the size of a lake or tell a deaf person, about various sounds in music. Suppose there is a boy, who is blind since birth, he can never understand the meaning of colour of milk, how elaborately you try to explain him. Now if that boy happens to be living at a place where all the persons are blind, then even the scientists of that town will consider you a mad person, if you try to tell him the difference of colour between a pink rose and a yellow rose.
Unfortunate we as human being consider the five senses as the ultimate limit, and we refuse to believe anyone (Either a person or an animal) who claims to be having sixth sense. But there are indications and unconfirmed reports that the birds and animals have the power to sense the incoming disorder like earthquakes (And even Tsunami catastrophe) . Similarly, after 1000 years from now, suppose we happen to travel to a distant planet, is it not possible that the inhabitants of that planet may be having a different sense of organ (i.e other than smell, feel, sight, hearing, and taste), let us say communication through mental power or something very new which we can not even visualize. However, we refuse to think in that direction.
Another thing that today's scientists refuse to accept is the existence of soul in a living object. They tell us that what is difference between a living person and a dead person? Can a scientist of present age tell what is the thing that powers a living man. Or in other words, suppose you construct a body of a person by adding all the chemical constituents and make it exactly similar to the body a living person, then can you make the person to become a living object. It surely will be a big no. That means there is something (We may call it a soul or by any other name) which when is inside the body of a person, the person is called a living person. And of course this particular entity has not been known in so-called modern science. Unfortunately, a scientist will also not accept any theory related with soul. Apart from that, no scientific studies have been made so far in case of the qualities, features and main characteristics of a living being vis-୶is a non-living object.
Mr. Daruwala then posed the next question to Dr. Mehra the retired Director, IIT, Kanpur. OK Dr. Mehra, just tell me now that how it was possible for a horse to produce a new colt having exactly the same qualities as the parent horse. Dr. Mehra then said it was due to the Genes it is having in its body. Thus now scientists are even in a position to produce, a new horse just by taking a few Genes from horse's body. Mr. Daruwala then said does it mean that now scientists can produce a gold object by taking a jean from a gold ornament. No, that won't be possible said Dr. Mehra since the gold is a non-living object and it does not have Genes. Then how do they differentiate between living and a non-living object.
"UNEXPLAINED FACTS, WHICH SCIENTISTS REFUSE TO ACCEPT"
1. There are so many insects and living on trees, who take exactly the same shape and colour as that of a tree branch or a tree leave. For example, the insect known as " " looks exactly like a Neem leave. How it is possible for the insect to precisely pick up and duplicate itself with the same colour, texture, shape and size as that of neem leave. Who designs and changes the shape / colour etc. in a perfect manner as that of computer. Why can't a stone takes the shape of a neighbouring stone.
2. There are umpteen examples, when a person was found recalling events from his past birth. Many incidents and information given by him were proved to be physically correct and geographically matching with the description given by the person. Sometimes even the persons mentioned of his past birth were found to be existing. However, the scientists deny these happenings.
3. Some times during sleep a person gets a dream giving indications about future, which turn out to be true. How could that happen?
Taking a stock of all the above I feel that;
"No scientist should disbelieve any incident or phenomenon even if it is not supported by present day scientific theories, provided adequate evidence and reliable witnesses are available to confirm the vent. On the other hand, it should be retained as an unexplained event, so that that the same could be explained at a future date with new theories of science. At the same rather all efforts should be made to find a solution for the unexplained phenomenon".
In the similar manner, whenever we find some phenomenon, which cannot be explained on the basis of phenomenon and nature has done it. But what is this nature, what all it is capable of doing, where it is existing and how nature is able to do everything in the most orderly and organized manner, no scientist or technologist can explain. Unfortunately when a person tries to put forward his observations regarding some bizarre phenomenon, which it not as per present day science theory, no scientist would dare to admit that the above phenomenon also could be due to the same invisible force (You scientists call it nature)."
With the above, all the seniors from the scientific communities present in the gathering were looking for an escape as they were fully convinced about the logic behind the solid arguments or Mr. Daruwala. Unfortunately, no one was there to show such path to scientists.
Similarly, in eighteenth Century, if someone could have told that it was possible to send pictures, sound, speech etc (TV) from one corner of the world to the other corner through invisible rays within a fraction of a second, even a high rated scientist would have thought that the fellow had gone nuts. In nineteenth Century, and even in early twentieth century no scientist could have believed that it was possible to copy the complete library of many thousand books on a small piece of magnetic disc and reproduce the same in no time through a machine called computer.
When we try to explain every phenomenon as per today's science, it becomes extremely difficult to do so. But since the Science is progressing very fast, can't we think that may be after 200, 300, 500 or 1000 years from now Science may discover some entirely new theories that may find a solution for today's unexplained facts.
We all know that we human being are equipped with only 5 sense organs viz. vision, hearing, smell, taste and fell. Some people are of the belief that there is something called the sixth sense, through which it may be possible to sense something which may be beyond human power and imagination. Perhaps it may not be possible to explain the sixth sense in words, as the human compatibility does not permit us to do so. It is something like telling a frog of a well, the size of a lake or tell a deaf person, about various sounds in music. Suppose there is a boy, who is blind since birth, he can never understand the meaning of colour of milk, how elaborately you try to explain him. Now if that boy happens to be living at a place where all the persons are blind, then even the scientists of that town will consider you a mad person, if you try to tell him the difference of colour between a pink rose and a yellow rose.
Unfortunate we as human being consider the five senses as the ultimate limit, and we refuse to believe anyone (Either a person or an animal) who claims to be having sixth sense. But there are indications and unconfirmed reports that the birds and animals have the power to sense the incoming disorder like earthquakes (And even Tsunami catastrophe) . Similarly, after 1000 years from now, suppose we happen to travel to a distant planet, is it not possible that the inhabitants of that planet may be having a different sense of organ (i.e other than smell, feel, sight, hearing, and taste), let us say communication through mental power or something very new which we can not even visualize. However, we refuse to think in that direction.
Another thing that today's scientists refuse to accept is the existence of soul in a living object. They tell us that what is difference between a living person and a dead person? Can a scientist of present age tell what is the thing that powers a living man. Or in other words, suppose you construct a body of a person by adding all the chemical constituents and make it exactly similar to the body a living person, then can you make the person to become a living object. It surely will be a big no. That means there is something (We may call it a soul or by any other name) which when is inside the body of a person, the person is called a living person. And of course this particular entity has not been known in so-called modern science. Unfortunately, a scientist will also not accept any theory related with soul. Apart from that, no scientific studies have been made so far in case of the qualities, features and main characteristics of a living being vis-୶is a non-living object.
Mr. Daruwala then posed the next question to Dr. Mehra the retired Director, IIT, Kanpur. OK Dr. Mehra, just tell me now that how it was possible for a horse to produce a new colt having exactly the same qualities as the parent horse. Dr. Mehra then said it was due to the Genes it is having in its body. Thus now scientists are even in a position to produce, a new horse just by taking a few Genes from horse's body. Mr. Daruwala then said does it mean that now scientists can produce a gold object by taking a jean from a gold ornament. No, that won't be possible said Dr. Mehra since the gold is a non-living object and it does not have Genes. Then how do they differentiate between living and a non-living object.
"UNEXPLAINED FACTS, WHICH SCIENTISTS REFUSE TO ACCEPT"
1. There are so many insects and living on trees, who take exactly the same shape and colour as that of a tree branch or a tree leave. For example, the insect known as " " looks exactly like a Neem leave. How it is possible for the insect to precisely pick up and duplicate itself with the same colour, texture, shape and size as that of neem leave. Who designs and changes the shape / colour etc. in a perfect manner as that of computer. Why can't a stone takes the shape of a neighbouring stone.
2. There are umpteen examples, when a person was found recalling events from his past birth. Many incidents and information given by him were proved to be physically correct and geographically matching with the description given by the person. Sometimes even the persons mentioned of his past birth were found to be existing. However, the scientists deny these happenings.
3. Some times during sleep a person gets a dream giving indications about future, which turn out to be true. How could that happen?
Taking a stock of all the above I feel that;
"No scientist should disbelieve any incident or phenomenon even if it is not supported by present day scientific theories, provided adequate evidence and reliable witnesses are available to confirm the vent. On the other hand, it should be retained as an unexplained event, so that that the same could be explained at a future date with new theories of science. At the same rather all efforts should be made to find a solution for the unexplained phenomenon".
In the similar manner, whenever we find some phenomenon, which cannot be explained on the basis of phenomenon and nature has done it. But what is this nature, what all it is capable of doing, where it is existing and how nature is able to do everything in the most orderly and organized manner, no scientist or technologist can explain. Unfortunately when a person tries to put forward his observations regarding some bizarre phenomenon, which it not as per present day science theory, no scientist would dare to admit that the above phenomenon also could be due to the same invisible force (You scientists call it nature)."
With the above, all the seniors from the scientific communities present in the gathering were looking for an escape as they were fully convinced about the logic behind the solid arguments or Mr. Daruwala. Unfortunately, no one was there to show such path to scientists.
Mr. Swapnil Bhartiya Questions on "The Invisible Man"
Dear Nautiyal Ji,
I am not qualified enough to speak on the topic, CMN ji has already explained in details and awe striking manner. But I would like to ask some questions.
There is a saying -- answers leads to more questions, and that is called quest for knowledge... (in Italics are the points raised by CMN Ji)
| Soul is not supposed to be material. So it can't have mass.
Q: What would you say about Hermann Bondi's negative mass? Going by the concept of anti-univers and anti-matter (positrons used in PET scanners are anit-electrons) , what is the possibility of negative mass. If negative mass exists can we connect it with the form of energy we call soul?
| The difficulty is that science is not so advanced as to be able to answers all questions. We still don't know why matter should have gravitational property. If there are positive- negative charges, North- South poles, then why don't we have opposite gravity i.e. attractive and repulsive variants of gravity?
Q: Same goes with the hypothetical theory of anti-gravity. Is it possible that the basic characterstic of dark matter is anti-gravity or repulsion that is why its distributed all around and not found in form of closely packed substance/bodies (which is possible only though gravity pulling mass together)?
| Can there be gravity without mass?
Q: Going by Einstiens GTR and E=MC2, which says matter and energy are the same forms of the same thing so light can do what mass does -- CREATE gravity. Actually this thought came to me as few days ago I read a paper of Ronald Mallet, Cannicut university. So do you think gravity can be created by just energy without needing mass?
Rest you have explained so well that I am speechless!
Looking forward to some replies.
And practically, I cant say anything about the pics and images Zeeshan posted, we used to do even more tricks with cameras and editing tools to create better effects during my film-making days at Jamia ;-)
I am not qualified enough to speak on the topic, CMN ji has already explained in details and awe striking manner. But I would like to ask some questions.
There is a saying -- answers leads to more questions, and that is called quest for knowledge... (in Italics are the points raised by CMN Ji)
| Soul is not supposed to be material. So it can't have mass.
Q: What would you say about Hermann Bondi's negative mass? Going by the concept of anti-univers and anti-matter (positrons used in PET scanners are anit-electrons) , what is the possibility of negative mass. If negative mass exists can we connect it with the form of energy we call soul?
| The difficulty is that science is not so advanced as to be able to answers all questions. We still don't know why matter should have gravitational property. If there are positive- negative charges, North- South poles, then why don't we have opposite gravity i.e. attractive and repulsive variants of gravity?
Q: Same goes with the hypothetical theory of anti-gravity. Is it possible that the basic characterstic of dark matter is anti-gravity or repulsion that is why its distributed all around and not found in form of closely packed substance/bodies (which is possible only though gravity pulling mass together)?
| Can there be gravity without mass?
Q: Going by Einstiens GTR and E=MC2, which says matter and energy are the same forms of the same thing so light can do what mass does -- CREATE gravity. Actually this thought came to me as few days ago I read a paper of Ronald Mallet, Cannicut university. So do you think gravity can be created by just energy without needing mass?
Rest you have explained so well that I am speechless!
Looking forward to some replies.
And practically, I cant say anything about the pics and images Zeeshan posted, we used to do even more tricks with cameras and editing tools to create better effects during my film-making days at Jamia ;-)
Further comments of Dr. Chandra Mohan Nautiyal on "The Invisible Man"
I am afraid, I don't understand the difference between the 'ordinary' energy and 'special' energy. But then I don't know the real difference between a huge assemblage of atoms and a living form made up of those very atoms.
Soul is not supposed to be material. So it can't have mass. The difficulty is that science is not so advanced as to be able to answers all questions. We still don't know why matter should have gravitational property. If there are positive- negative charges, North- South poles, then why don't we have opposite gravity i.e. attractive and repulsive variants of gravity? Is quark the ultimate unit of matter? Can there be gravity without mass? Neutron may be electrically neutral over all but what about internal distribution? It has magnetic moment after all! Electrical and magnetic fields act at a distance and have electro magnetic waves. Are their gravitational waves? If not, how does one body detects another and attracts? Is and why is gravity inherent to mass?
Photon can behave as waves as well as particle (the famous wave- particle duality). Photon has zero (rest mass) i.e. when still, its mass is zero. It has no charge hence free from Coulumbic interaction. As particle, photons can be scattered. This means that it changes its direction (exchanges energy/ momentum) on collision.
I am not sure if djinn and soul are one and the same. Soul doesn't have a shape or figure, djinns do. For reflection, deflection, scattering, there has to be a field or matter to cause them. Can a djinn be having field without having mass? The position of mass may be different from position of the field. It's like this: a magnet on a table may have a magnetic field above the table.
For magnetic field we require a magnet, for electric field we need charge (e.g. electrons, which have mass), or for gravitational field, mass . We see an object if our eyes receive photons from that object. The photons may be generated in the object or scattered/ reflected by the object. Theoretically, energy source can lose energy as photons. For the amount of light shown in the photograph, the number of reflected photons has to be very high. This is surprising as each photon that impinges on the object, doesn't reflect back towards the camera. It can not have a field without mass (some would say the source of energy is elsewhere?). But how'd camera see in abundance what eyes are completely missing; the halide on the celluloid is not known to have any additional sensitivity!
To cut a long story short, in these days, post- production can explain such effects but also that science doesn't explain everything, as yet, that is. Will it ever? I don't know.
Soul is not supposed to be material. So it can't have mass. The difficulty is that science is not so advanced as to be able to answers all questions. We still don't know why matter should have gravitational property. If there are positive- negative charges, North- South poles, then why don't we have opposite gravity i.e. attractive and repulsive variants of gravity? Is quark the ultimate unit of matter? Can there be gravity without mass? Neutron may be electrically neutral over all but what about internal distribution? It has magnetic moment after all! Electrical and magnetic fields act at a distance and have electro magnetic waves. Are their gravitational waves? If not, how does one body detects another and attracts? Is and why is gravity inherent to mass?
Photon can behave as waves as well as particle (the famous wave- particle duality). Photon has zero (rest mass) i.e. when still, its mass is zero. It has no charge hence free from Coulumbic interaction. As particle, photons can be scattered. This means that it changes its direction (exchanges energy/ momentum) on collision.
I am not sure if djinn and soul are one and the same. Soul doesn't have a shape or figure, djinns do. For reflection, deflection, scattering, there has to be a field or matter to cause them. Can a djinn be having field without having mass? The position of mass may be different from position of the field. It's like this: a magnet on a table may have a magnetic field above the table.
For magnetic field we require a magnet, for electric field we need charge (e.g. electrons, which have mass), or for gravitational field, mass . We see an object if our eyes receive photons from that object. The photons may be generated in the object or scattered/ reflected by the object. Theoretically, energy source can lose energy as photons. For the amount of light shown in the photograph, the number of reflected photons has to be very high. This is surprising as each photon that impinges on the object, doesn't reflect back towards the camera. It can not have a field without mass (some would say the source of energy is elsewhere?). But how'd camera see in abundance what eyes are completely missing; the halide on the celluloid is not known to have any additional sensitivity!
To cut a long story short, in these days, post- production can explain such effects but also that science doesn't explain everything, as yet, that is. Will it ever? I don't know.
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